TOPIC:

Ronny,

Bravo on documenting those copy and paste bugs. I realize I have encountered those quite a bit, but I chalked it up to user error.

- T.

Here's another copy/paste issue. If you use background noise reduction to a clip, it prevents you from copying and pasting attributes/filters to other clips.

The work around is to deselect noise reduction (temporarily) on the source clip, then copy/paste as normal to as many clips as you want, then go back to the source clip and turn back on the noise reduction.

A better solution would be to just grey out the audio enhancements in the copy/paste attributes window. I've sent feedback to Apple on it.

But knowing the issue in advance could save you time when you are colour correcting your project.

@Michael:

Thanks for reporting this one, as well as for the workaround. I will submit extra feedback about this.

@Timothy:

I would expect user error from many people, but really not from you

-Ronny

Thanks for that Ronny.

Like TPayton, there were real subtle things going on when I've been doing certain things that I first thought was me!!!! Until Now.

I will never use Copy/Paste in FCPX ever again. Besides, who ever uses that?

Copy/Paste is only used by old stubborn dinosaur editors who would never touch FCP X anyway hahaha.

-Ronny

@ronny - I may not be that old ( although some would call me stubborn) but my last project had over 400 images that required the exact same cropping. I must confess that I used C/P to get all images correctly set in under 2 minutes. I guess I could have charged out more editing time if I did them all individually !

Hey Dan,

Was that with 10.1 or 10.1.1 on Mavericks? Didn't you have any issues at all?

-Ronny

I would like to be able to send to compressor with Roles.
Now it´s only possible to send stereo sound " track 1 & 2", not stereo 1&2 and 3&4.

The reason to send it to compressor is because i have to deliver in a other codec then i can output from FCPX.

I can output from FCPX in apple prores with Roles and take that file to compressor with sound settings to same as source. But that is one step to much.

Or have the Custom output back in FCPX. =)

Mathias

ronny wrote:

Hey Dan,

Was that with 10.1 or 10.1.1 on Mavericks? Didn't you have any issues at all?

-Ronny

Hello, Ronny.
The project was done in 10.1.1 with Mavericks 10.9.2. I did some further investigation and it appears that the copy/paste of the CROP function works properly when the SPATIAL CONFORM is set to NONE (which it was in the case of my project). If it is changed to either FIT or FILL, there are indeed problems. The cropping would then paste, but the images would be much smaller than the original. The positioning of the images also seemed to change on the clips whose cropping was pasted into even though the numerical values were pasted correctly. So from my tests, it seems clear that the CROP attribute will only paste correctly when using NONE for SPATIAL CONFORM. Thankfully I was lucky enough to use the parameter set that actually works for my project (and this is generally how I have my clips set anyway).

Roles has potential to be the most fantastical thing ever for editing, export, timeline organization and audio mixing. Right now, it is barely scratching the surface. I believe that Apple knows this potential (hence they made it) and in a future version we are going to wonder how we ever did anything without the amazing things we can do with roles.

Here's a quick mockup of a simple timeline with the existing organization vs a Roles-based structure.



In the EXISTING PROJECT image, we have the monochromatic green for all audio, and only the "Title Purple" half size block differentiating elements on the video side. Audio elements overlap and get mixed up randomly while working.

With the ROLES-BASED PROJECT in the bottom image, audio elements for VO, MUS, and SFX are cleanly separated not only with unique colours, but they also now occupy their own horizontal space and order. Roles can be one "Lane" high as the VO is here; or 2, 3... however many overlapping elements it takes. Video elements as well are given a distinct colour for things like TITLES, GRAPHICS, LOWER THIRDS...

Like in LogicProX, Roles could be collapsed into something that looks like a Compound Clip to save viewing space. But unlike CCs, it only takes you expanding them to get access to moving individual elements. And all these elements continue to maintain their Clip Connections to the Primary Storyline.

With Roles as an organizing element (think of them as "Supertracks" the same way that Smart Collections are "Super Bins"), you now have an organizing element you can use to add common effects, or make level adjustments to an entire Role. And you have an organizing element to send to a mix channel.

That's an interesting layout. I agree Roles will become increasingly important and that we are only scratching the surface right now.

- Ronny

"but they also now occupy their own horizontal space and order. "

I really want Apple to figure this out. The difficulty, I think, arises when you have multichannel, multi-Role clips. If my picture source has got 6 channels of audio with Stereo DIA, FX, and MX, (I always do), and I disconnect it for some reason, where does it go? If I'm using the DIA and FX from the same connected clip does it go in an "other" lane? If I leave it connected and I'm using DIA and FX, what color is it? They fixed the Role highlighting with multichannel sources, but a collapsed clip with 2 or more roles will be highlighted if any enabled role is selected. You need to expand the components to see what's what. I'm sure there's a way to deal with this, but I don't think it's as simple as we might imagine...

Connected/multichannel audio definitely poses a visual conflict.

The only solution that immediately comes to mind is an "Audio Mode", which when turned on, would visually separate attached audio from clips and sort them based on the Roles assigned to their individual components. I suppose they could look slightly different so that you know they're connected audio.

Disproportionate wrote:

Here's a quick mockup of a simple timeline with the existing organization vs a Roles-based structure.

In the EXISTING PROJECT image, we have the monochromatic green for all audio, and only the "Title Purple" half size block differentiating elements on the video side. Audio elements overlap and get mixed up randomly while working.

With the ROLES-BASED PROJECT in the bottom image, audio elements for VO, MUS, and SFX are cleanly separated not only with unique colours, but they also now occupy their own horizontal space and order. Roles can be one "Lane" high as the VO is here; or 2, 3... however many overlapping elements it takes. Video elements as well are given a distinct colour for things like TITLES, GRAPHICS, LOWER THIRDS...

Like in LogicProX, Roles could be collapsed into something that looks like a Compound Clip to save viewing space. But unlike CCs, it only takes you expanding them to get access to moving individual elements. And all these elements continue to maintain their Clip Connections to the Primary Storyline.

With Roles as an organizing element (think of them as "Supertracks" the same way that Smart Collections are "Super Bins"), you now have an organizing element you can use to add common effects, or make level adjustments to an entire Role. And you have an organizing element to send to a mix channel.

I joined just so I could respond to this post (and it's a cool looking forum besides!). This is an INCREDIBLY good idea - to be able to assign not just roles, but colors to roles and everything else you said.

Now how do we make Apple make that happen?

"The only solution that immediately comes to mind is an "Audio Mode", which when turned on, would visually separate attached audio from clips and sort them based on the Roles assigned to their individual components."

They have that, it's called Logic and it doesn't really work yet. lol My guess is we'll get some better visual solution down the road, I think having user definable "zones" would be nice, but then we're heading back toward tracks, targeting, all that crap.

My hope, and I have no basis for this other than the mysterious, always checked, "Final Cut Pro" selection in the Window menu, but maybe the ultimate goal is to have FCP, Motion, and Logic all available at once. Change to Logic and do your audio, Motion for FX/compositing, and have it all (somehow) update in the FCP X timeline. Like adobe dynamic linking, but better.

I can dream right?

Now how do we make Apple make that happen?

Send feedback. Frequently.

@plysat

Agreed. A tighter integration between FCPX and Logic would make trying to bend too far back for audio sake unnecessary.

If Logic understood Roles, then you could hop into Logic to effect/mix some audio, then pop back out. There would need to be a Lane for a continuously updated "Mixdown" from Logic. And Logic would have to be able to not freak out of you added new content or changed your edit part way thru.

That's a tall order. I'm not sure which is the easier problem to solve, that or a new Roles based visual language.



Here's one idea for how multichannel audio from two clips could be broken out. With each one having a DIALOGUE Role, and then one having a SFX, and the other a new AMBIENCE Role.

plysat wrote:

They have that, it's called Logic and it doesn't really work yet. lol My guess is we'll get some better visual solution down the road, I think having user definable "zones" would be nice, but then we're heading back toward tracks, targeting, all that crap.

As I lay out in my unpublished blog post on Roles, tracks are only problematic in that they require too much manual finesse and can get in the way of editing. FCP X's trackless timeline makes editing more fluid because audio is more slave to whatever you're doing with the picture. Right now organization is suffering to that end.

But I don't think we'd ever have to go back to patching tracks. Assigning roles is essentially like Keywording footage in the Event Browser. Once Roles are assigned, audio (or video) would automatically find it's place in the timeline. SFX would jump to the SFX Role zone, DIA to DIA and so on.

For this to work well, assigning Roles has to get faster and easier. This could be done by-

1. Being able to assign multiple different audio/video Roles on import. Perhaps even assigning Roles to multiple selected clips that you know share the same audio layout.

2. Dragging an audio or video clip to a Role zone would automatically apply that Role, and perhaps using an Option key, allow you to have it applied to the original clip in the Event browser as well.

Again, I see Roles in the Project very much like Smart or Keyword collections in the Event Browser- anything that has that Role will alway go into it's proper zone in the Project timeline.

Although I think there should be excellent integration with Logic, I think that in general FCPX is to be a one stop shop for edit, color and audio. I don't think they are selling Logic as a needed replacement

I'm hoping that Apple will address with mixing aspect first and the organization aspect second. I think organization by audio roles could be done very simply, and that is what Apple excels at.

Marcus - I think you ideas a right on. Apple is gonna figure it out.