Audio replacement workflow

You are correct. When I import both files in FCP X the start TCs are different, while Wave Agent says they are the same:



But when I try to relink the original clip to the improved clip on my desktop, the files match and I am able to relink:



You can see that the clip has been relinked, the start TC is now the same as the start TC of the modified clip to which it has been linked:



So the real question is:

Why am I able to relink these files on my system while you cannot relink exactly the same files on your system?

A suggestion:

Try to relink an original clip (ZOOM0009-Tr1) in your FCP X clip browser to the same original clip (ZOOM0009-Tr1) in the folder I have sent you.

When this has been done, relink the clip to the improved clip (Zoom009_Rxd-WAVE FILE) in the folder and see if this works.


Off to sleep now, but I ill be back around 6 a.m. local time.


EDIT: having a closer look at the relinked clip I saw that the duration of the relinked clip is different than the duration of the clip it was relinked to. But that's just FCP X messing up. When I put the clips on the timeline I can extend the relinked clip. The original clip (which I re-imported after relinking), the relinked clip and the improved clip all have the same length and they match perfectly:




- Ronny

Hi Manoucho,

I just did some further testing. I brought an original clip and the improved one, both from the folder I have sent you, back into Wave Agent.

I set a frame rate for the original clip, the same 23,98 one as I had set for the modified clip, and I saved. Then I imported both clips into FCP X and now they show exactly the same start TC in FCP X. It is clear that FCP X sees the start TC of an audio clip according to the frame rate of the audio clip set in Wave Agent.



Still that does not explain why I can relink the clips and you cannot. What OS are you running? I am doing this on a system running Yosemite and I know a lot of things have changed with relation to video and audio in Yosemite. Maybe that's why FCP X could be less picky relinking on my system than on yours.


- Ronny

Hmmm,

I haven't seen the files.

But I would be really amazed if FCP(X) ever cared about about metadata like FPS.
This is an issue since a decade.

So it doesn't matter what FPS entry you make in Wave Agent.

- Andreas

EDIT:
If you change the FPS base in Wave Agent the timestamp (TIMESTAMP_SAMPLES_SINCE_MIDNIGHT_LO) won't be changed. So nothing changes unless the target application can handle BWAV metadata.

One thing though with can happen is that the app which was used to "enhance" the audio used it's own timebase and changes the samplerate to fit into it's environment.
The saved file will be different for FCP X.

Ronny, Andreas

This project is starting to become a nightmare but I'm REALLY GLAD you guys are on board to help out.

Ronny: I've tried what you suggested:
- relink original file with original file you sent me -> OK
- then relink to modified file -> NOT OK

Arrrgh.........

-EDIT:

I am on Mavericks. I did not upgrade PRECISELY because they say not to do so in the middle of a project. Shall I ?

Manoucho,

You can send me the offending files as well, I'll have a look.

kiel{at}spherico(dot)com

- Andreas

Just done so. Thanks a lot again.

What software was used to modify the files?

Could you create a XML from the project?

- Andreas

Protools was used.

XML attached.

EDIT: can't seem to add the XML. Sending through email

Huge thanks.

Guys I've made an interesting discovery:

- If I create a new event and replace the file, I can relink the file without problem.
- But if I place the file on a new project and edit it, then I can't relink it.

It seems to confirm that it is a timecode interpretation issue.

Manoucho,

Protools should be able to save a .wav with timecode.

I had only had a short look at your files today, but will have a closer 1 tomorrow.

- Andreas

Manoucho,

That's interesting. And this of course would explain why I was able to relink the files while it did not work for you. I am happy to see Andreas is looking at this problem as well. I will do some further testing in a few hours. I'm sure we will be able to solve this nightmare.

- Ronny

Here a bit really technical background.

I actually only looked at 2 files to analyze the data structure ( I won't explain what is what).
The data structure looks very different for the files.

Original:
|fmt |:"Idx: 3 StartPoint: 878 Length: 31882", RIFF:"Idx: 1 StartPoint: 0 Length: 12", |data|:"Idx: 4 StartPoint: 32760 Length: 46909448", bext:"Idx: 2 StartPoint: 12 Length: 866"

Modified:
RIFF:"Idx: 1 StartPoint: 0 Length: 12", |fmt |:"Idx: 2 StartPoint: 12 Length: 4076", |data|:"Idx: 3 StartPoint: 4088 Length: 46909448"

That's the reason FCP X won't relink.
I'll think about a solution tomorrow.

- Andreas

Thank you for looking into this, Andreas.

@Manoucho:

I have just sent you one audio file: "ZOOM009_Rxd WAVE FILE"

Try to relink this file to the "ZOOM0009_Tr1" clip in your FCP X Clip Browser. It relinks on my system without any problems, even after having created a Project with parts of the original clip on the timeline.

Does this work for you as well now?

- Ronny

Hi Andreas,

I think I have found the solution. The problem with resetting the time code in Wave Agent is that you absolutely need to enter a "frame rate" for the file before WA allows you to modify the time code. This "frame rate" metadata absolutely confuses FCP X, it makes it display completely wrong start and end time codes for the imported clip.

So I have opened the file that needs to be relinked in Logic Pro X and I have changed the Project time code so it matches the time code of the original clip in FCP X. I have exported the file as a new 24-bit WAV file and it immediately relinks to the original clip in FCP X.

- Ronny

Ronny,

That's a brilliant idea.

- Andreas

Hi guys

Sorry for my silence I was working away from the office yesterday.

Ronny: the file you sent me works !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:

I've also tried to put it on top of the original file and I was relieved to see that there is no echo/delay between the two.

The last big step is if X2Pro will handle it well, but it seems we're very close.

Wow I don't know how to thank you!

The only problem is that I don't have LPX, could I take advantage of your generosity and ask you to do the other files as well ? If you don't have time no problem I'll find somebody who has it.

Thank you thank you thank you thank you

Hey Manoucho,

Glad we have finally gotten you out of this nightmare. No problem, I will modify the other files in LPX on Saturday morning and I will send you the folder with the correct files as soon as all are done and tested.

We also use ProTools in-house and I can confirm X2Pro has no issues with relinked clips. Whenever we need to relink files I always make sure the relinked clip in the Browser also gets the correct name (which FCP X really should do).

- Ronny

The files have been sent to your email address.

- Ronny

Ha Ronny

I don't know how to thank you. You've been unbelievably helpful, patient, competent. I'll make sure to add you in the thanks section of the credits it's the minimum I can do. And I'll be happy to invite you for a coffee next time I pass by Brussels, if you have time of course!

Hi Manoucho,

Happy to hear it has finally worked. I have learned something in this process as well. The fact that Wave Agent insists on entering a frame rate for the audio before you can modify the start TC of a clip seems to confuse FCP X. So for future reference it is better to have the audio guy send back the modified clips with the same time code as the original ones. And if they cannot do this, LPX can always come to the rescue

I will be happy to meet you some day soon, I have seen your website and I like the work you guys are doing. I regularly come to Amsterdam, it's one of my favorite towns in Holland. I will contact you a few days before my next visit, so we can have a chat.

- Ronny