FCPX.1 Keyframes still messed up

i would say that i been editing for 20 years and worked at pinnacle/avid for 10 of those years testing the liquid chrome line of editing software for desktop and broadcast use, submitting bugs was my job.
i know a bug when i see it. Sorry but there is nothing you can say to convince me that placing a video keyframe in the middle of a frame is expected behavior, especially when its intermittent.
And when copying a keyframe and pasting it, the linear or smooth interpolation settings should paste as well.
And when you click on smooth and the UI dont change, but the clip starts to re-render, thats an obvious bug , something changes or it wouldnt re-render (talking about the scale changes in keyframes)
not using the application correctly... in editing there are many ways to do the same thing. there is no way to NOT use it correctly.

"there is no way to NOT use it correctly."

That comes right up there with one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

I don't doubt you're expertise, and I'm sure the application is not perfect, but it works correctly for me.

I dont mean to hijack my own thread here, but how the heck can you use it incorrectly? I guess if you tried to drag a filter between 2 clips as a transition, that could be an example.. but then again the software would catch you and wont allow it.
If it didnt catch you and allowed it, then the app crashed or some other weird behavior, it it my fault for using the app incorrectly or the softwares bug for allowing it to be placed between 2 clips?

Should i make the keyframes in the viewer or the inspector?
What one is correct and what one is incorrect.?
neither.. there are often many ways to do the same thing in editing
you cant use the software incorrectly.. unless of course your talking about something like "how come when i drag the exposure in the color corrector my clips volume wont increase like i want it too?"

anyway the same ole bug in the keyframe editor is still there.. linear and smooth are not working right.
copy and paste keyframes is a new feature that does not copy/paste the linear/smooth settings correctly
i dont know if adding keyframes in the middle of a frame was in the previous version or not, ill check that when i boot back into the other partition that has the old version still installed.

Hi Kurt,

Anyway the same ole bug in the keyframe editor is still there.. linear and smooth are not working right.

I certainly see everything working correctly. After reading this post I have done several tests wit keyframing. In all these tests linear as well as smooth keyframing worked as expected, even when combining Scale and Position keyframe parameters.

In the screenshot you can see every keyframe is linear both for Scale and Position parameters and the animation runs perfectly linear as well. This wouldn't have been possible in 10.0.9. without a complex workaround.

I have even added some new keyframes mid-animation just by dragging the picture in the Viewer between existing keyframes. When you do this the curve between the new keyframe and the existing ones defaults to smooth and all you have to do is make it linear again if you want to. No need for any workarounds at all, it just works.



- Ronny

Hey Ronny,
Thanks for the test.

for me where i am seeing issues is when the keyframes are copied and pasted.
Sometimes ill need to delete the keyframes and start over, changing from smooth to linear still poses odd S curve (speed when using just X position) speeds in movement.
In the example i made at the start of the thread, it is the last 2 keyframes where mostly the problem occurs. I will need to delete them, then write in the value numbers, then change to linear (if needed) to get the motion correct.

If i copy an paste a keyframe, it will not retain the smooth or linear settings. Then just changing from smooth to linear does not always fix the issue. between the 3rd and 4th keyframe, the video will speed up movement just before the last keyframe.

Also when pasting or creating a keyframe, about 1/4 or 1/3 the time, it gets created mid frame. This also will cause odd behavior in the motion of the clip.

I can repeat this speed up behavior everytime using the steps at the start of the thread.

1. make a keyframe
2. go a bit down the clip and make another keyframe, now drag the X position so the clips is partially off the screen make sure everything is linear.
3. copy the 2nd keyframe and paste it further down the clip
4. copy the 1st keyframe and paste it even further down the clip after the 3rd keyframe.

between the 3rd and 4th keyframe the videos motion speeds up and is not linear.

change the 3rd keyframe to linear if needed and sometimes this fixes the issue, sometimes not. When it dont, there is nothing that i can find to fix it, other than deleting the last 2 keyframes and making them manually by putting in the values.

Another note, in the 4th keyframe (usually it occurs here but not always) the keyframe is made in mid frame. This causes a different issue where if you scroll over the area (right over the keyframe) you will see that the clips position does not fill the screen 100%
even though it is set to be positioned in the keyframe editor and the play head is right over the keyframe. You need to go to the next frame before the position of the clip fills the screen corectly (causing a jump in the movement). Trying to fix this with smooth or linear obviously has no effect, you need to move or create a new keyframe on the start of the frame.

thanks
Kurt

Hi Kurt,

Okay, I will do some further testing but I have one question: You say "a keyframe is added mid-frame". Are you perhaps working with interlaced footage?

- Ronny

Hey Ronny,
I will make a video screen capture of this today and youtube it.. I cant upload it till after midnight however (satellite internet bandwidth limits..) (I am in AZ and its about 8.45 am now..
Ill give you the link once its posted.

thanks
kurt

Okay, looking forward to seeing the screen grab. This will make it much easier to see what's going on and how it can be solved.

- Ronny

No, it is progressive.
by mid frame, i mean anywhere with-in the frame the keyframe can get created (not necessarily at the 1/2 way point)

Hi Kurt,

Could it be that in the Paste Attributes dialog panel you have selected "Stretch to Fit" instead of "Maintain Timing"?
If you do a stretch to fit the pasted keyframes might end up somewhere mid frame. This is to be expected when the length of the original shot differs from the shot where you are pasting the keyframes to. If you don't want this to happen you have to select the other option and adjust your keyframe manually if you want to change their timing.

Robbert-Jan

Hi Robert,

Where is the paste attributes dialog?
What i am doing is copying/pasting keyframes.
Do you mean pasting a video clip?

thanks
Kurt



Ronny,
I just made the screen capture of it all, including not being able to move to the last keyframe in the viewer.
It will show keyframe being placed mid frame, its offset in the viewer, and everything set to linear but the playback is not, then how i was able to fix it (this time the fix worked) by first moving the keyframe to the start of a frame, then set to smooth, then back to linear again. when setting back to linear again it will force a re-render, correcting the linear/smooth issue.
I am rendering it out now and will youtube it tonight, then post back here with the link.

thanks
Kurt

When you select a clip, then press CMD-C to copy, then select the clip where you want to paste the keyframes to, press SHIFT-CMD-V to paste attributes. Then this Paste Attributes dialog will appear



Down at the bottom of the dialog is the "Maintain Timing / Stretch to Fit" pop-up menu

OK, I see what you mean...
No, what i am doing is copying and pasting keyframes within the same clip.
There is only one clip used.

so i am copying and pasting via Edit>keyframes>copy/paste

Ok, I'll check what is happening on my system

Hi Kurt,

I will have a look at your video as soon as I can, off to an all-night gig now.

A few things you might consider:

1. If you are working natively with long-GOP media there is no way to predict where keyframes will be set, as your native video simply does not have complete frames on every frame. Keyframes will only be set on full I-frames, not on B or P frames.

2. You say FCPX re-renders after every change. I hope you are not working with Background rendering turned on, as this would explain your interpolation changes not being reflected in your animation. Constant re-rendering the same part of a clip is a bad thing in any NLE. Trash your render files and keep background rendering OFF until you have finished your animation, then only render if you really need to. FCPX runs fine on even the most basic systems without the need for rendering. Of course if you work with non-optimized highly compressed formats you may need to render anyway. That's one of the many reasons why it's not a good idea to work natively with non-professional formats such as MTS or the likes.

- Ronny

Ah, I think I can see what happens.
When you are zoomed in quite a bit, you can park your playhead in the middle of a frame.
If you have copied keyframes and you paste them, they will land at the playhead.
To prevent this you can press your right or left arrow to let the playhead land on the beginning of a frame, prior to pasting your keyframes.

Robbert-Jan

Hi Ronny,

the clip is 422

background render is on otherwise the 'fix workaround' would not update and work.
However ill give it a try with it off to see what happens.

also, if i am using a log GOP clip, the keyframe placement i dont think should matter.
the UI (FCP) should move to the start of any frame before creating or pasting the keyframe on the video (not audio).
Sometimes it will do this correctly, you can actually see the playhead jump as it pastes or creates a keyframe, othertimes it wont, and put the keyframe wherever the playhead was.

thanks
kurt

yes, but you shouldn't have to this. seeing you are working with video (using the video controls when creating the keyframe and copying it) the app should correct for this. As i mentioned sometimes it does, and you can see the playhead jump to position before the keyframe is actually made.. othertimes not.

the other issue, copying and pasting the same keyframe attributes (either linear or smooth), it never does this (as far as ive seen).
Set a video keyframe to all linear, and copy then paste it somewhere down the clip. Then check the pasted keyframe, it will be smooth again and not linear. Resetting this to linear will not always work and the playback of the movement will not be correct.

thanks
kurt

Hi Ronny,
I am not seeing much of a difference with render off.
it does look like however that one step is eliminated (the final change back to linear again to force a re-render)..
ill look at it some more.

However i am finding that in Mavericks and fcpx.1, i need to render more than in mt lion.
GTX 680 GPU, 3.33 6 core and 24Gig of ram running on HDD raid with 400+ read/write speeds.

fcpx.1 in mavericks seems to use more memory over time, bogging the system down. if the project is big, i need to shut down fcp and restart it after a period of time as the memory usage continues to rise.. thats why i usually have render turned on.
thanks
kurt

Hey Ronny,
The clip is uploaded now..
thanks
kurt