Interlaced Material... Driving Me Crazy

Hello everybody!

This looks like a well informed friendly community, so I'm trying my luck here.

Introduction:
I have years of experience editing videos on Windows with good results. I know what Top Field First means. But since Windows is my daytime bread-and-butter world, I bought a shiny MacBook for Christmas to edit my large backlog of family and vacation videos.

Almost all my material is interlaced. I have some HDV (1440x1080, interlaced) from the wedding, but mostly AVCHD (1920x1080, interlaced). Using ClipWrap's "Rewrap" function I was able to make this material fairly accessible in Final Cut Pro X.

I was happy to discover that FCPX has project settings for interlaced material, '1080i HD'.

Lastly, I want to export a platform-independet format, as most of my media players are either Windows based, or the Playstation 3.

Thanks for reading this far. This is where the trouble begins:

I seem unable to export an interlaced movie, even with Compressor.
All I can find on the internet are suggestions to deinterlace the material... but I find that to bring a very intensive quality loss. I have the opinion that deinterlacing is never a good idea quality wise.
To avoid deinterlacing quality loss, I thought I would keep my material interlaced. Are there no settings for that?


Please, pretty please, somebody help me.

So far, I am sorry to say I am disappointed in the Mac software. The hardware rocks, though - when I am using my Windows notebook, I unconsciously try multitouch gestures.


Kind regards,
Anaximandus

Why don't you let FCP X convert it to ProRes for you? ClipWrap has issues and does some odd stuff to it's transcodes sometimes. Personally, with all the problems I've heard from folks using it, I'd never touch it. That's your problem, not Mac's, but cheap ClipWrap freebie software. You get what you pay for (or don't pay for).

Compressor or FCP X should handle HDV footage transcodes just fine.

What camera make/model is this footage from?

As for output, there is no such thing as a truly platform independent codec, since every codec released, ends up having a dozen proprietary flavors created by various vendors. H.264 QT is pretty good. Flash Player will even handle it well. I've never had problems with it.

Hello Ben,

thanks for your input, but...

FCP X does not let me import any of my source files. No MTS (AVCHD), M2TS (AVCHD), M2T (HDV MPEG-2). So I cannot let it convert for me.

I do not use ClipWrap to transcode, recode or convert, just to "Rewrap", which usually is called remuxing. And, as it does not recode, it is truly lossless. It gives me MOV files which iMovie and FCP X seem to handle well until I try to export a project.

(Yes, ClipWrap introduces errors to my HDV sources, but as long as my problem concerning interlaced material is not solved, I can ignore that.)

My output goal is something along MP4 H.264 without using QT, because my entire target group can play that, which from my pov is platform independent enough.
QT is, as a final format, too proprietary for my needs.

The largest part of my footage comes from a Canon HF 100, which I regret having had set to record interlaced. But all I have are the single files without any AVCHD structure. Another disappointing problem with Apple software...


Again, my concern is exporting interlaced material, are there settings in FCP X or Compressor which allow that?

I'm in a similar position to you Alexander, in that I have many years experience editing on a PC, but I changed to Mac as soon I seen FCPX released and seen it's potential.

That combined with not having worked with interlaced material since I changed to FCPX doesn't put me in the best position to help.

But something seems wrong, I just done a test and imported an old interlaced clip to FCPX in a project set with interlaced settings. Shared the file as ProRes422 and it exported interlaced as it should.

Are you 100% that your project settings and source clip are both interlaced?

AVCHD .mov won't work, not a supported editing codec at this time. Transcode to ProRes. Export H.264 QT, it's universally supported. I've never seen a computer that couldn't play it back on the web.

Ben, nice to see you trying to help. Thanks for the effort.

But as I said before, rewrapping/remuxing my material made it very nicely editable in both iMovie and FCP X - AVCHD .mov does in fact work very well.

QT is not universally supported. I don't understand "couldn't play it back on the web". The web is not my major target group, it's mostly Windows 7 PCs.

What software do you recommend for transcoding? I have yet to find a software that does not crash.


NocoDave,
thanks for the sentiment. I'm glad I'm not alone with this issue.
I just tried what you suggest, and FCP X created a horrible looking progressive movie.

If that would have worked, where would I go from here? I cannot share those huge files (> 4 GB for 3 minutes).

If that would have worked, where would I go from here? I cannot share those huge files (> 4 GB for 3 minutes).

Are you exporting ProRes 4444, I may be wrong but I think it's a progressive only codec and doesn't support interlaced. If this is the problem right enough you'll find out by exporting 422 which does.

All Pro Res exports look the same. 4444, 422 HQ and 422.

There's one thing that just hit me, I tried to double-check my source:
What does it mean when QuickTime player says

Format H.264, 1920x1080 (1888x1062)

Where does 1888x1062 come from?

At this point I cannot rule out a horrible problem arising from ClipWrap. Wow.

EDIT: It turned out to be just a display parameter, ClipWrap does not change the video size or change the data when rewrapping.

AVCHD has many flavors, depending on the camera creating it. But it's all still Long-GOP, which makes me cringe. I shoot with P2 and DSLR, and hate using native H.264 for so many reasons.

I and others use MPEGStreamClip a lot and never have "much" trouble with it. If it keep crashing, trash it, reinstall it. A lot of this stuff also depends on the hardware specs your running on.

Flip4Mac gives you the WMV codes in the QT library if you need that. Be careful which version of Flip4Mac you get, each package gives more and more options.

ProRes is not progressive or interlaced, it will create an all I-Frame version of your footage, based on the original footage's specs. It will match progressive or interlaced, frame size/rate, bit rate, etc. ProRes 4444 is to be avoided unless you're doing Hollywood level comp'ing. ProRes LT and 422 are standard for consumer/prosumer cameras. The difference between the ProRes flavors is only supported bit rates. 4444 supports a fully color sampled alpha channel.

You can use Compressor for force footage to change from progressive to interlaced, change frame rate/size, bit rate, etc. But the transcodes in FCP X don't change any of that stuff.

Long-GOP is not normally recognized as great for editing. It doesn't hold up for color grading very well. It doesn't keep it's image quality well during transcodes. It takes forever for export transcodes to do.

ProRes was built to hold up to all of that, being an all I-Frame codec.

If you have to do proprietary format exports, you'll want to probably get the WMV codec from Telestream (Flip4Mac), and learn Compressor well. There's a book out called "Apple Pro Training Series: Compressor 3.5" which is still relevant to version 4. Very good information in that book you won't find anywhere else.

Anaximandus wrote: Format H.264, 1920x1080 (1888x1062)

Where does 1888x1062 come from?

The first number is the compressor engine's native frame size. The second number in parenthesis is the actual encoded frame size. Yes, I'd say ClipWrap is doing something very wonky.

ProRes is not progressive or interlaced, it will create an all I-Frame version of your footage, based on the original footage's specs. It will match progressive or interlaced, frame size/rate, bit rate, etc.

Thanks Ben, I'm also with you on the LongGOP for editing issue, it's an output technology that got involved in HD capture and the first thing that should be done with it is conversion to intra-frame.

I have a strong feeling this is an issue before reaching FCPX too.

Well, if ClipWrap gave me 1888, then I can explain all the crappy output I get from whatever software I'm using.

I'll have to find another way to make my files accessible.

I agree that it's not the best material to work with, but I am just a family man with honeymoon and toddler videos. Next camera I buy (the Canon HF 100 got broken) will have to be able to do progressive frames at least.

While I try to solve that problem:
I don't understand how ProRes can be "not progressive or interlaced". Even with full I-frames, from what I learned one of the techniques must be used.

When I have transcoded or remuxed files, I'll be back to report.

ProRes can be either Progressive or Interlaced, and by default will create a video file based on what the original was. I-Frame does not mean either Interlaced or Progressive, it only means 100% of the image data for that frame is stored in that frame, that's all. That can be either interlaced or progressive video. Although progressive video gives many less issues than interlaced. It's easy to convert from interlaced to progressive. Converting progressive to interlaced causes problems.

Anaximandus wrote: Hello Ben,

thanks for your input, but...

FCP X does not let me import any of my source files. No MTS (AVCHD), M2TS (AVCHD), M2T (HDV MPEG-2). So I cannot let it convert for me.

Hello

Might i suggest you try rarevision.com/5dtorgb/

There is a free version and a batch (paid) version on the Apps Store.

Functions very well for us.

Regards

Krzysztof

So far I have not been successful making my MTS files editable.

a) my own conversion to MP4 interlaced, b) Voltaic to Apple Intermediate Codec, c) Voltaic to Apple Pro Res and d) 5DtoRGB to Apple Pro Res

ALL of those results look bad in QuickTimePlayer. That might be a bad sign, but my own conversion looks great on the Playstation 3 on a 60" TV. I cannot play the MOV converts, of course, so I do not know if they are good or not.

At least I am sure that my own conversion IS in fact interlaced.

All clips import fine in FCP X, but no matter what settings I export (and YES, the project is ALWAYS set to be 1080i), the results always look bad.


I am now uploading my source file and all conversions, if anybody is interested in taking a look at it...

My Source File (175,3 MB)
The best example for what I have to / want to work with. AVCHD, 1080 interlaced.
This file looks good when I play it on the Playstation 3 via HDMI on a 60" TV. Don't mean to brag, it's just what I expect quality-wise.

Recoded with TMPG to MP4 (202.9 MB)
Not the best move quality-wise, because again MP4. BUT FCP X can import this, so let's take it for academic purposes. This too plays well on the Playstation 3. It is still interlaced.
But it DOES look crappy on my Mac when I play it in QuickTimePlayer. Does QuickTimePlayer not know how to play interlaced material?

Recoded with Voltaic HD to Apple Intermediate Codec (146.8 MB)
I cannot check if this file is still Interlaced, I hope it is, it should be. I cannot play it on the PS3.
This file looks crappy in QuickTimePlayer, too.

Recoded with Voltaic HD to Apple Pro Res 422 HQ (216 MB)
I don't know how to check this file, either. Same problem as with Apple Intermediate Codec, it looks crappy in QuickTimePlayer.

Recoded with 5DtoRGB
This file has not finished uploading (> 2 GB), I will add the link here when it has.
Same issues as with the Voltaic-recoded files: Looks crappy in QuickTimePlayer.

Export with Compressor (264.3 MB)
Here it gets interesting. This file is was exported from FCP X with Compressor, the source is my TMPEG-recoded interlaced MP4 file. The result is progressive (my initial problem: how do I tell Compressor to make it interlaced) and one can see it was de-interlaced in a very basic (crappy) way. But it does not look nearly as crappy as my recoded versions.



Now to get back to my initial question:
What must I do to edit either of these files in FCP X, and export an interlaced MP4 movie that plays well and LOOKS well on the Playstation 3?
I fully see and understand the advantages of going with Apple Intermediate Codec or ProRes, but those give me a headache...


I know this might hurt a few fans, and I just got off the phone with a good friend who is honestly sad about it: I am disappointed with Apple.
I never had problems like this when I edited video (same source!) on Windows...

I like what FCP X has to offer. I am willing to learn. There MUST be a way to export a proper video here.


Please help.

I never downloaded any of your recoded files, but I did download the source. Is this the file you aren't able to get directly into FCPX. I.e. are you going "File", "Import", navigating to that file, finding it greyed out and trying other ways to get it ready for import?

If so that won't work right enough. Try this, copy the folder structure (not just the file) from your memory card on to your hard drive and go "File", "Import from Camera", "Open Archive" and get it from there.

That way you should get your source footage in, but I'd strongly recommend telling it to "Create optimized media" to get away from Long GOP.

Can't help with your PS3 thing sorry, I haven't touched a game machine since the SNES, but I have a feeling that if the above is the issue things should start to go ok from here.

Dave,

I may have forgot to mention: I have around 700 GB of family videos from the last 4 years. All without the AVCHD directory structure. All that's left are the MTS files. That's my import issue.

Still... I know of ways of recreating that structure, but wouldn't that still leave me with my export issue?

I'll try to create a directory structure (or do some quick recordings) and then see what happens.

I just downloaded your TMPG to MP4 file.

Import that into FCPX and select it in the Event Library, then at the bottom left of the Inspector change the view to "Settings View" and set the "Field Dominance Override" to "Upper First", create a project (with manual settings -25i) and you'll be able to export a clean interlaced video.

Be aware that computer monitors and TV screens are vastly different animals in how they create images. Computers screens and way higher resolution (not always a good thing for video) and progressive, having major problems displaying interlaced video properly. Which is why most studios use a broadcast monitor to check image quality and color grading.