Versions for clients?

gaddster wrote: ... Certainly in this business, you have to manage expectations really well from the start

Here's another one:
When you teach them, change is possible (technically, in time, for free), they will change!

What's now said several times:
documentation is of paramount importance! .. I'm no fan to hand out versions; lately after the 3rd version, client will start mixing ("first 5sec from vers#3, then the happy face from vers#1, but not the fat lady, instead from vers#2...")

You're no mechanic.
It's your expertise, you're skills, your art, your experience they hired.
You made the first edit for a reason.
ok, minor changes, … but 44???

And again: weak client - YOU should never talk to 4 levels of company! That's usually part of the contract - who are you talking to, who's talking to you? Who can you ask 'anything, any time'? The internas of your client are of no interest, you shouldn't care who pees over your work... (did I say p***? really???)

... it is YOU who's in tghe end 'guilty' making the gras red - not wimpLevel3, who ordered that weeks ago in a severe case of creativity!! ....
Although a ton of work, but it is time to say full-stop and document the mess.
(and quote the advices given here, industry-standard:
first edit, 2 changes, than extra hourly fee of $$$ .... )


And when they need just a 'Mouse Pusher', then they should sit aside you - the whole edit!
... you'll instantly notice how fast decisions are made, how fast the 'final' version is done. Old trick of mine ... ok, can happen, the client starts to feel being an artist and feels home on the couch in your edit-suite... terrible for work, but excellent to earn tons of money!!

.... conc. you like my thinking - people tell, I'm sarcastic. No, that is experience.
Clients have no clue what we do. So "couldn't be so complicated, hm? The computer does most of your work! It's just an effect, right, have seen same in Avengers, you can do too, right, just a software thingie?". When they start with "A minor change/you need just a minute" - interrupt "How can YOU know?!".
....

If they want a long process of making, they have to pay a long process of making.

I've dealt with the "multiple points of contact" on corporate gigs before. And I insist that I have ONE contact person, and only that person will communicate with me. If they can't do that, I insist I can't deliver work on time with too many cooks in the kitchen. I put my foot down and tell they they are going to run a sky high bill, with me charging for so much time talking to multiple people, none of who are on the same page, and it will run up the number of times I have to revise, which costs them each time.

You really have to put your foot down, and state that you will NOT under any conditions work with any situation but a single point of contact. A corporation understands that, and they will comply. All the times I've done that, I've only gained more credibility, respect, and better cooperation. Don't let them push you around, or they will. And if they push you around, you'll end up losing money, and being very unhappy with your job.

I cannot see why we cannot have 2 ways of working, those that just edit, and others that are tougher, braver, business orientated that can deal with the client.

I am a great editor, I have quite at times severe autism, this prevents me from dealing with people, why should this preclude me from editing?

You set my rate, and I work to that rate, I do the heavy lifting so to speak, the editing, you check my work, make suggestions, or corrections, pass this on to the client, what I would describe as a closed shop set up.

I know that it exists in pc repair, where you drop off the damaged laptop, they send this to technical staff off site, who often work from home, maybe disabled, or whatever, they do the work for a set wage per month, I go back to the depot to fetch my laptop, I never see or know where the technical staff are, everything works.

We are now in a high speed broadband universe, where timezones now make sense, you go to bed, when I am getting up, my day, your night, so an over night job is really a day job for me.

Why not a new way of doing things??? Why does everyone have to deal with clients? I would never deal with clients, end up saying and doing the wrong thing, clients scare the skirt off me really, but left alone, I can work right through nonstop...just a thought!!!

"I cannot see why we cannot have 2 ways of working, those that just edit, and others that are tougher, braver, business orientated that can deal with the client."

If you can afford to hire and pay for a sales rep, more power to you. But the reality is, most of the work we independents do are not earning us that much money. It is very simple.

And coming from the IT world, when you walk into a PC repair shop, you usually are dealing with one of the two or three technicians that do the actual work, and they're usually not very polite or easy to deal with. At least here in the US that's how it works. That's why there's huge turn-over rates of PC repair shops and technicians.

Do you know why they are not easy to deal with? They may very well be high functioning autistics, and dealing with people is nigh impossible, they try but it never works.

I have come across many that work from home, get the work delivered to them, the work goes back to a shop/depot.

People with mental conditions, such as austism and other closely related conditions need to be treated differently, what is wrong with having someone work from home, where they feel safe, less pressure, the quality of work improves if they are not under pressure to deal with customers!!

I know in my case, left alone, my work was 100%, people in the room, I left as if my thumbs had been stolen and I had 3 left hands, and was stupid..They leave my thumbs return and I have a standard left/right pair of hands!!

Just a thought

Honey, I was in the industry for over a decade, I know these folks, no, they are not autistic, the folks I speak of are simply self-centered a-holes. I know them first hand, I hired, I fired, I trained, I was butt deep in it. They're just not very good with people. You don't need to have a mental issue to be rude, impolite, and just a jerk. The autistic and otherwise impaired folks I've worked with, both in media production and IT, were usually the more polite, calm folks. Until some rude a-hole opens his stupid mouth and says something idiotic, then the whole room falls apart. Simple good manners, and being polite, goes a long way. I've gotten more work by sending thank-you notes to clients than I have any other form of advertising or promotion. Talking terms of work isn't difficult, unless you make it so. A simple email, well worded, and polite, factual, to the point, can nip a lot of business issues in the bud. Solutions, not excuses. And solutions can be found.

Thanks for all your feedback everyone.

I have spoken to the client and agreed a new way of working going forward. I will include costs for 2 edits (4 for animation) in the quotes. Signed up to hipster to make reviewing more engaging and more streamlined for both client and me.

Phew that eases my mind

BenB wrote: My studio always specifies 2-3 client reviews/revisions in our initial contract. And we state how much extra it will cost if the client requires more than that. I find clients spend more time looking things over, and get really smart when you put a limit of time and money on these things.

This is so true. I've seen clients rush with their feedback and then after you're done with the first round of changes, they email you saying "oh and also, Tom had the following comments but he was out of the office so we didn't get his comments until now". If the client has a big team reviewing the video, sometimes this has happened multiple times.

I've worked for a company who included only one round of changes in the price of the video, anything beyond that was charged by the hour.

Here's my pricelist I give to customers:

I edit everything €100
I edit, you watch €200
I edit, you advise €300
I edit, you help €500
You edit, I help €800
You edit I advise €1300
You edit, I watch €2100
You edit everything €3400

Could maybe be modified for versions as well?

I just did a logo, business card and a banner for a friend. He has absolutely no idea (or taste) regarding design. I have to put everything I've learned about graphic design over the past 22 years aside when working with him. And of course there's countless revisions and changes along the way... Too bad he's helped me out on many occasions so can't tell him to stuff it. Had he been a regular client I would never accept work from him again

Ha brilliant, oh I help friends on a regular basis, in fact the latest one wanted logo and van designed and up till yesterday he kept saying 'not bothered, will go with anything you say'.. wish all clients were like this

Made me laugh your pricelist, especially the last ones

funny list, Dmitri ... :lol:
although, I would change the last point to:

"You let someone else edit everything: €3400"

Since I was a teenager working in a mechanic's shop (1970's), these have been popular with auto mechanics here in the USA. Most every shop in the southern US had one of these up in their office.

Hourly Labor Charges
Normal $25/hr
You Watch $40/hr
You Help $85/hr

But yeah, this should be in edit bays, also.

BenB wrote: Since I was a teenager working in a mechanic's shop (1970's), these have been popular with auto mechanics here in the USA. Most every shop in the southern US had one of these up in their office.

Yeah, I knicked it from the internet, it was refering to graphic design I think the one I saw. Just came to think about it for some reason when reading this thread

But to get back to the original topic... Revision/versions are a tricky subject.

It's important that the customer is happy. Which is why it's super important to be clear on things like that from the start. I really struggle with that. Maybe because I mostly work with friends and acquaintances or friends of friends. And almost exclusively in artistic fields. It's by nature a very informal environment, so if you send them something too contract-like they are gonna go "WOAH!?"... But I really need to start doing that. Just need to figure out a way to word it, I guess.

There are video production contract templates online if you do a search. Modify one to your own needs.

If I'm just doing someone a favor, and it isn't a big job or a big deal, I specify very clearly in an email what I'm going to do, make clear my "free time" is limited, and thus why these are the limits of the free work I give away. I ask that they reply so I know they understand. That has served as a contract "between friends" for me in the past. Just an idea, for the more casual work situations.

Also, if is pro bono work for a friend, and they ask for one too many revisions, just tell them you can't. Say, "This is the last one, because I have paying work to concentrate on, and I'm out of time for this project." If they don't understand and work with you, I'd question the relationship, not the work.

gaddster wrote: Really like the look of wipster as i have a vimeo account also

Thats a better way to track client changes without the hundreds of emails

Frame.io is way better.

damiangrady wrote:

gaddster wrote: Really like the look of wipster as i have a vimeo account also

Thats a better way to track client changes without the hundreds of emails

Frame.io is way better.

whats the difference between Wipster and Frameio?