Versions for clients?

Slightly unrelated but as I edit soley in fcpx just wanted to know your thoughts?

Got a new client, we agree a price with one main edit.. Last two jobs have gone up to 10 versions of changes each. They are very very pedantic

Anyone else have this problem and how to you budget for the extra costs without overpricing?

Here in Germany, business-laws differ btw. 'project contracts' and 'hourly fees'.
The last is good for you - the more they like to change, the more you earn. Any plumber knows that.

The first allows the client 'endlessly' changes. To make that not happen, an excellent documentation is essential, of briefing, of any call, of all get2togethers.... when your client finds out in vers.12 that the first edit was best, you can proof him "been there, done that - make up your mind".

So, BEFORE you launch Mac, you send your client last meetings protocol... and wait
Often, the phone calls you "no, no, no - we had something different in mind!"

Or, when vers.#5 is out, and client starts with square1, you can tell "we had meanwhile 4 versions, you had 4x the opportunity to change - now, it's extra (hourly fee)" ..

- - - generally spoken. Asks for 'instinct'... and no, no work on spec!
Your costs are NOW …

Thanks Karsten

Great video by the way

I cost my jobs by the clients brief and I charge a half day rate then try and work out how long it will take to edit, but I never cost the additional changes so it's difficult to assess, the first is always very good BUT even when the clients requests changes, they want more changes to their changes etc.. This latest promo has 3D animation in so the render time is an hour alone

One of my friends when he ran a small editing or post production shop, told me when I asked him about rates, he said he charged per minute of finished product, or part there of, and when it came to revision, he said the client had 1 free revision, then the same rate per minute or part there of applied.

Which I thought was actually quite fair, as you can see the work on the timeline, and the client can make up his mind how many edited minutes he wants to buy, this seemed to work for him.

I guess the idea is that some minutes are easy minutes, and some are more complex, so the easy really just paid for the hard, I guess like a car service, some actions easy, some not so, but it balances out in the end...

Karsten I could not agree more, the idea of doing a freebie, is insane, it costs me money to use my laptop, in terms of electric, wear on the laptop, my time and training has value.

Why do people think editing is something you can do for free? The worst are charities, which are huge multi-national corporations with cuddly names, Greenpeace, WWF, Save this or that.. The management fly business class, if forced to, or fly private jets, and they say we can do a freebie for the exposure, but they own the rights to my work!!! :dry:

I was under the impression you neeed a lil uprise .. therfore the video....

gaddster wrote: .... when the clients requests changes, they want more changes to their changes etc.. This latest promo has 3D animation in so the render time is an hour alone

hmm, always hard to give advice from remote ...
in my business life I was both - client and producer. As a client, I would never have paid for render times! As not for maintanance, backup, reboot, whatever ... there's this vague position 'overhead' in a calculation, to get money for the coffee machine and the girl at the entrance, but ...

As a producer, I have to calculate that BEFORE making a deal ... there are clients, who pay 'service', whatever that is, and, having several clients, could lead to, you get paid for 35h a day ...

back2you:
"changes to changes" is not YOUR problem; that's why documentation of any client relations is so important. You're doing business, not hobby. You haven't calculated your offer including "client's process of opinion making'.... or 'watching the paint dry' as I like to phrase it.
When it's documented "you asked 2d ago for a diff. change than now!", you're in position to overthrow your offer, demanding 'extra'.

While you change red to green to blue to yellow, you can NOT work for another paying customer. And at the end of the month, you have to pay rent, electricity, kids teeth&colleges ....

Do it for free. Or do it for living. You're not living to do that.

Thanks everyone

Think I definitely need to find a way of dealing with this effectively so the client still feels happy, but their employees are not giving me the runaround with changes after changes. They ask me to find a clip to replace a clip which I do, then they ask for another one instead!

gaddster wrote: ... They ask me to find a clip to replace a clip which I do, then they ask for another one instead!

a) weak, unprofessional client
b) my deepest sympathies (that's how any 'creative' businees works, unfortunately ...)
c) not your problem

If i understand you correctly, you made a deal with a fix price. 'Deal' means: both parties agreed. It's clear: a single project has not only a fix price, but a fix timeline (not speaking of FCPX here ... :ohmy: ).

Time to play boss and contact the other one of those wmpies - overtime 100%, "is this your companies level of professionalism?", new calculation.

(pssst! ... you're in a good position - they have no done product! And re-doing it with gaddster2 costs them more than paying you the extras...)

MsJustine wrote: … the idea of doing a freebie, is insane…

quak!
Any gift is a freebie, give&get, don't ask what they can do for you, ask what you can do to them… ethic hygiene.

I support for years a school for free, I did (the obligatory...) wedding movie for friends as a gift, I made an 'plea for money movie' for some social-care project, I believe it earned it. And several other stuff.. for free.

'Free' means:
I'm free to decide, if I do it, how I do it, when I do it.
No obligations. For both sides. My decision.

Does my gift makes the management richer? I don't think so.
My part in these games is a very small one. My personal decision.
Does it make me poorer? Technically yes. Real life? No.
Does it make me better? For sure! Nothing challanges your skills better than working under restricted budgets. And 'no budget' is just plain awesome... big fun!

(no, no smiley, no sarcasm, very serious! And, sorry, MsJustine, I'm not willing to debate that.---)

I'm a professional trainer, I get paid for it, have been for over a decade and a half. Does that mean every time I try to help someone here I'm giving away free work I should be paid for? So, how much does FCP.co owe me in fees for all the "training" I've assisted with here, for "free"? If you think doing free work is insane, then don't ask me for free advice or directions.

I want to make this very clear, I am opposed on principle and personal ethics that the abuse of people under the guise of helping "charities" is wrong, that is what I am opposed to, as they are not poor struggling charities, but extremely wealthy multi-national corporations abusing the naive or vulnerable person looking for some way to make a name!!

That is what I am so angry about, when you see what the management fly in, live in, eat, sleep when away from home, and I am to give them free to them, at high cost to me, my services and use of devices!!

Sure there are cases where free is good, as highlighted, the off spec is a problem and we are not trained or have any idea how to deal with the pressure applied by crafty clients who take advantage...

Hi Gaddster
Figuring out how to do all the business aspects is IMHO a drag. Owned lots of businesses including consulting and setting rates and change order rates is not easy. Want the business, want to be friendly, likable, want to eat in a house.
I think it all comes down to upfront presentation. If you go too far in bending over backwards to please your client, then you open the door to be taken advantage of. Develop a strategy and include it in the contract and then verbally about price of changes. If it is clear from the beginning that you do not do endless free changes, then it is less difficult to bill the hours. If you have the clause in the contract for change orders = additional billing, then you can simply evaluate during discussions whether you are willing to do it for free or if you have to tell the client it is an additional charge. Nothing wrong with setting a base contract price and then charge by the hour for changes. I think it all comes done to how you present yourself upfront.
If your work is worth it and the client is coming to you, then get paid for your skills.
Not easy if you tend to be the "Good Guy/Gal".

Hey funny video Karsten! Made me laugh.

All said, I do lots of free work for friends, and for non-profits. Non-profits come in all shapes and sizes. The vast majority are small barely able to make it and very honorable. I have founded 4 of them so far and worked/volunteered for lots more. Never once been in private jet. Did get a ride in a friends Cessna once, does that count? I consider it volunteer work to give back to the community and to support the wonderful work non-profits do. To each their own.

Hope this helps, Greg

Thanks everyone, really valuable insights. Thanks Vidgreg, great advice. Kirsten i like your way of thinking

I actually have done a lot of FREE work in my short 6 year editing career for friends, but I loved doing it as I knew from the start that it was my choice.

Im charging this client, just all the changes make the initial rate i quoted 'diluted' as the hours roll on, which makes me hesitant next time with my quotation system for them. Definitely time to change my approach and processes

On an episode of FCPX Grill Chris Fenwick talked about the challenge with clients and changes. I don't know which episode - sorry.

As I recall Chris saved a version with every change (versions numbered appropriately). With that record he was able to show them how many changes they were asking for. My guess would be the client and/or their employees probably aren't even aware how often they're demanding changes.

Seems to me that with that approach you'd have a starting point with which to discuss the situation and possibly suggest a contract renegotiation might be in order if that approach was what they really wanted. If nothing else at least you wold know what happened and be prepared to set a limit on any future contracts you negotiate.

My studio always specifies 2-3 client reviews/revisions in our initial contract. And we state how much extra it will cost if the client requires more than that. I find clients spend more time looking things over, and get really smart when you put a limit of time and money on these things. Btu yes, revisions should be specified up front in your original scope of work, be that a written estimate, or a written contract. Never let it be open ended, or it will drag on forever, and be a source of great frustration and tension.

Every time we quote we specify that the job includes 2 rounds of edit changes, after which time the edit is locked and goes to grade/online. We use Wipster (wipster.com) as a way to manage those changes and ensure that everybody is on the same page through it's versioning and comment tracking system. Version 1 of the edit contains round 1 of changes and version 2 - round 2 of changes (it's also a good idea, before you implement the changes, that they are reminded that this is their last round and they must be sure all changes are in). Version 3 on Wipster then has comments disabled. If they then want more changes a polite email is sent explaining that they've exhausted their quoted changes and all changes moving forward will unfortunately have to be charged for by the hour. Having a solid and transparent system in place is vital.

Really like the look of wipster as i have a vimeo account also

Thats a better way to track client changes without the hundreds of emails

I usually price a project based on projected days, based on my day rate - from a clear brief which I insist on before giving a final quote. Most of the time I will include 2 rounds of revisions to an edit in the price - and then charge an hourly rate which is a division of my day rate for any additional changes (all of which are flagged up ahead of time). I don't lose out on the included 2 rounds of revisions as I actually budget for that in terms of time - but it helps the client feel I'm giving them a little extra (and I don't begrudge the odd fix her and there gratis).

Where I've had trouble in the past is when a client tells me they have only a small fixed budget and then demand endless fixes - and it's ALWAYS the clients with little money who are difficult. In the past I had less choice over who I worked with so I had to swallow it. Best advice I read online was that my only choice is whether to work with someone or not again - it does me no good to get angry with them on the phone (which I have done). You're in a tricky situation as you're already working with them but if I was in your place I'd bill them for the extra changes and then when they freak out agree that 'this time' you'll let it pass but in future you charge x hourly for changes. That way you reset the road map. If they complain about changes tell them you can't work for free. Their choice is to pay or settle for existing edits.


These days my radar is more tuned to weed out difficult clients and I'm fortunate enough to be able to pass most of the time.

Unfortunately im at the stage where this is a large corporate client and they have used me 6 or seven times in the last 6 months. However their internal management structure changed so instead of dealing with one person, i now deal with the manager, coordinator and assistant so they review, then send to their boss (who always wants to say or change something)

All great advice this, robertdee I did a job for 2 friends on the cheap and one came back with 4 separate revisions, the last stating one last change... he showed his wife and sent through 44 more!! lol i told him I was fine to do them at a cost (he said it was then fine ha)

Certainly in this business, you have to manage expectations really well from the start

Charge by the hour, or if you have Flat-Rate for the project then I would suggest extra charge by time for anything that has to be down out scope of the contract.

I agree on the helping, a friend, co-worker or partner. In this case on hand washes the other.
Again its all about tactics you want the client to come back. I always a little something something but that can be down by rounding down the bill and etc...