Price of Editing?

Hey!

I work mainly as a one-man-band doing everything (film-light-editing etc etc).
I usually give a package price. But want to start splitting them more between filming and editing.

Is there such a thing as a standard price for editing?
(European prices, not sure US rates apply very good)

Let's say per minute of edited material?
Per hour? Per day?

It will mostly be editing material I've shot myself and thus am fairly familiar with

When coming up with a price, even a package price, you should know what you're getting paid for what, not just come up with a price. Otherwise you have no clue what profit you may or may not be making.

Larry Jordan once posted an age old business formula for coming up with a price. Let's address your editing specifically.

How much do you realistically need to make off of editing per year?
How many hours of editing do you realistically think you can do in a year for hire?
Divide that, you have your hourly price.

For production, you'd do the same for your time, and for your equipment.
How much did you spend on your equipment?
How many hours do you think you'll use that equipment?
How many years do you plan to pay off that equipment?
Do the math, there's your equipment charge per hour.

Same for your production time.

If your hourly rates come out too high for your local market to support, then you've got to rethink how much you want to make per year, vs how much you think you should charge per hour.

If you don't do the math, you've no clue if you make a profit or lose money every year.

I'm on a reality TV show shoot at the moment. I'm in a different state, different market, than my home town. But the younger crew, who were born when I started in this industry, ask me how much I charge for my services. My answer is; "What I charge means nothing to you. First, you've not the years experience I have. Second, you're in a very different local market that supports very different rates." Then I give the age old business formula for calculating business services. And of course all these kids think they should be making tons of money when they've only been in the business 1-3 years. But that's a whole other rant I won't get started on... kids...

Thank you, Ben, for sharing the formula.
I would also add that you should be revisiting your calculations after every major project that you work on.

Keep careful account of how much time you THOUGHT you were going to spend, and then be honest about how much time you ACTUALLY spent.

After you get more years of experience, you'll have a much better internal gauge to use when you calculate estimates and proposals. The key is to keep track, and to be honest with yourself.

Thanks Ben, that was very helpful advice, and not something I had considered, not in the very simple but powerful formula so nicely laid out.

There is something bothering me a bit, if the OP is doing his own editing, then basically he needs to factor into his sums, the lost hours his camera gear is collecting dust.

If you edit, you cannot shoot, you shoot, you cannot edit, something has to give, and what is the cost to him if he hires an editor, or an experienced camera operator??

It is a great temptation to want to do both, control the entire value chain, so when is he going to edit? He needs to rest, or risk future health issues from lack of meaningful rest.

The question was price of editing? Is it cheaper to hire someone or do all the work himself? I have seen very few camera owners doing the shooting and all the editing themselves, they hand over the work to dedicated editors, I understand the desire to control the production, from start to finish, there are ways to hand over work to others, to do a proof check before handing over the final product.

Just a concern something is being overlooked..

All the other comments make sense but if I'm filling in budgets I generally say 400 euro per day ( eight hours ish!)....
With productions where I'm doing everything sometimes I get the edit done quicker than projected but I kee p the money If I'm sitting with a client I keep a timesheet...

I've no idea if this is normal as I've lost touch...
j.

DmitriZigany wrote: Let's say per minute of edited material?
Per hour? Per day?
It will mostly be editing material I've shot myself and thus am fairly familiar with

If you're good, you charge by the day with half-day minimums; do not consider charging hourly rates. If you're starting out, your temptation is to submit an estimate based on delivery and you undercut your competition in the hopes of getting another gig with your client. And that is a huge mistake.

Editing the footage you shot provides familiarity but does not insure your client will not rewriting the project or suddenly give you huge volumes of external material, or ask you to do far more work than shooting and assembling such as motion graphics, 3D effects in Motion, deep audio design in FCPX or Logic or Garage Band.

You've got to be careful to charge what you are WORTH and to charge what the market will sustain. Do not charge what you think your clients will pay.

same calculation as mentioned before, what you need for existence, then backwards.

be realistic:
insurances (health, lawyers), jobs per months (paid jobs …), reserve assetts (new Mac every 4y), tax provisions (… oh ohhh…) - not to forget: financing your life (a day off with your spouse…)

be very realistic:
… consider to make profit …

in retrospect:
get paid per day, never per job ...

400 euro a day is less than a well skilled carpenter calculates in Holland. I'am teaching young professionals 10 days a year at 75 euro an hour (High School level).......

Just curious what the average hour rates are in this industry.

Here is a rate that you can safely go by in Germany.

Per Hour netto / brutto
120,- | 142,80 EUR

Per 1/2 Day (4 h) netto / brutto
450,- | 535,50 EUR

Per Day (8 h) netto / brutto
800,- | 952,- EUR

I would calculate hardware separate from service calculation. Also usually I calculate new drives (1 Scratch, 2 Backup optional and 3 Archive optional) to each project depending on the size of the project.

Scrubelicious wrote: I would calculate hardware separate from service calculation. Also usually I calculate new drives (1 Scratch, 2 Backup optional and 3 Archive optional) to each project depending on the size of the project.

Good point on the drives. If you buy new drives for every project. you can hand them to the client with you're done and they become their property and their responsibility. If you must archive and maintain the media for them that is a HUGE burden and will require that you purchase additional insurance as well as hiring a vault someplace off of your premises.

The costs of doing business are separate and net of what you charge for editing. Your costs for rent, utilities, insurance, etc must be included in your fees.

while we're on the topic of backing up, if you keep your back up drives next to your computer, it's rather like not having any backup at all. If your studio is burgled or flooded or burns to the ground, your backups are gone, too. Mission critical backup copies should be rotated daily to offsite and secure locations, unless, of course, you don't think you need backing up. Be sure all this stuff is in your contract and you understand clearly what you're on the hook for in terms of funds for replacing footage or work lost.

We also have an administration fee (based on a reduced hourly rate from post production work) added to every project that covers logistic and non-editing activities, such as offloading footage to client drives, drive and folder organization, spot checking delivery materials, uploading client approval work, creating invoices, statements and various other financial documents and data entry costs specific to the job. This often consumes a lot of time and is something you should be paid for.

I gave the bare bones of the formula, but you do have to include costs of overhead. As for Justine, you either edit, or shoot, you can't do both, obviously, but either way, you're working and earning a living. If I shower, I can't train my dog. But if I train my dog, I can't shower. Something has to give, really? I either shower or train my dog? No, I think you're over thinking things. Many of us shoot and edit, not an issue.

Here's Larry's article with more detail.
larryjordan.com/articles/calculating-the...-time-and-equipment/

BenB wrote: I gave the bare bones of the formula, but you do have to include costs of overhead. As for Justine, you either edit, or shoot, you can't do both, but either way, you're working and earning a living. If I shower, I can't train my dog. But if I train my dog, I can't shower. Something has to give, really? I either shower or train my dog? No, I think you're over thinking things.

Here's Larry's article with more detail.
larryjordan.com/articles/calculating-the...-time-and-equipment/

Why can't you do both many have? You mentioned at least in every third post you have done something else.
By the way your link is my work.

MsJustine wrote: … I have seen very few camera owners doing the shooting and all the editing themselves, ….

proofs again: All our 'own' experience is anecdotical.

Every Wedding Photographer/Videographer shoots&edits his own stuff ....
… and most 'video makers' outside broadcasting ....

Scrubelicious wrote: Here is a rate that you can safely go by in Germany.…Per Day (8 h) netto / brutto
800,- | 952,- EUR….

… compared to Larry's estimation in that link (~300$/10h), your numbers look much more realistic to me!

And even with 1k€/d, you don't get rich at the end of the year....


Interesting the point of 'backup' - I just know a lil' about the standards for financial data (at last 3x backups, 2 locations/fire proof, blablabla) … do you really offer 'backup as a service' as a one-man-band? Seems to me a Mission Impossible. Commercially....

"By the way your link is my work."

What link specifically?

Happy to see this thread alive and kicking in my absence!
Thanks everyone for your input.

Some more info about me/my situation:
I'm the world's worst business man. I hate money. I hate to deal with money. I'm also genuinely uninterested in money. It's a neccessary evil to me. Unfortunately you need it to get by in this world
I'm an artist by heart and so far most of the people I work with are also artist (= poor people). And most of them are or become friends or acquaintances. This means I tend to give good prices, because they can't afford more and I have to take the jobs to pay the rent. This is stressing me out though. Problem is if I charge a lot (= normal rates) I get such immense self imposed preassure that I almost get a heart attack and want to kill myself if what I deliver doesn't look on par with Bladerunner
Anyway. I'm trying to get better at the business side of things. I'm also starting to get more requests from non-artists and by knowing a bit more about going rates it might be easier for me to quote prices that are more realistic.

Karsten Schlüter wrote: And even with 1k€/d, you don't get rich at the end of the year....

Oh, I'm celebrating everytime I make more than €1000 a month!

DmitriZigany wrote: …

Karsten Schlüter wrote: And even with 1k€/d, you don't get rich at the end of the year....

Oh, I'm celebrating everytime I make more than €1000 a month!

Dimitri,
let me comment my own comment ...
Answer was given in context of talking about 'editlng as a business'; I know several people (all 'Daddy's rich son') practicing a sophisticated version of self-exploitation, and destroying market prices for serious movie-makers.

I'm living on a very small budget too (retired), but I've seen too many people claiming, they don't need money - but living from welfare, help of others, using 'free' support ...

It cuts both ways, being a hedonist ...

Dimitri, not meant as a personal offence, who am I!!
To help friends is great, I'm doing that frequently (my life's motto is "Give a smIle, get a smile") too, volunteer teacher etc etc.

But I constantly keep in mind:
Every 'job' I do for free is a 'no job' for any who gets paid for .....

… I differ projects from jobs, to mention that …

In this perspective, I do not understand a 100% why you ask for commercial prices… :huh:

… but … anyhow, such a discussion fails by concept LOL ...

I cannot tell you how many people I have seen try and make a living in this industry be forced out when the kid down the street does the same job for almost no charge.

The problem is huge, and when I try and explain why I have no showreel, then am told to do free work for charities, those same charities bosses drive around in massive 4 wheel drive cars, and live in multi-room mansions, and fly 1st class, and I have to give my time, no pay this charity a full time rate to do edit, as that is what volunteering is.

To volunteer is to pay the person you are helping not with my money, but with my time, and my time is worth x per hour, as if I am editing for this rich "poor" charity, I am not making money elsewhere, so where do I get the financial resources to pay rent, electric, petrol, food, etc for supporting my life???

Only the wealthy can really afford charity work, so what is the price of editing? I cannot afford to buy new gear, even $30 plug in's are impossible, mainly due to very poor exchange rates, local to US Dollar. What is cheap in the USA, is through the roof expensive, $30 is 3 weeks petrol or put another way, I spend R100, or roughly $10 for petrol, that takes the needle from the red to the first marker on the gauge. This is about 4 days to my freelance gig, when I am needed.

As a result, I am not competent, or I feel I am not competent at editing, my self confidence has been eroded to the point I feel I am incompetent, and I would not feel right to even start to charge what I need to charge to start to become professional, yet for 12 years I was the most confident tv news video editor, in languages I do not speak, yet now I feel so incompetent.

The more you do, the luckier, or more skilled you become, and you can start to charge more, for me the price of editing has come at the expense of my self confidence, I have lost so much faith in myself, I am not sure I have the time to gain it all back!

When you do free work for a charity, you help the charity, not the head of the board who is rich. And you get paid with footage for your demo reel. If you don't need that footage, don't do the charity work. If you do need the footage, then you are NOT working for free, you are getting paid with invaluable demo reel footage.

Blaming others for your personal situation doesn't help change anything anywhere anyhow. Only those who take personal responsibility, bite the bullet, and work hard without bitching are successful, rich or poor. I've lived it.