PPro to FCPX and back...

I may be doing some sound and grading work for a new reality TV show here in the states. Yeah, I know, reality TV, but it's a friend, a good show, and it could be fun. So the main editor is using PPro (reality TV should demand FCPX, if anyone has any really strong arguments I could make with them for that switch). What's the best way to get his timeline into my FCPX system? I do not think I'll be sending a Timeline back to them. My impression is I'll also do the encoding and delivering them the final QT file for delivery. But...

Be aware his current editor using PPro does a two camera multicam. Issues?

Ben,

I would assume "7toX" or Resolve would be the best if not only choices. Not really sure how that multicam would translate though.

Good Luck

Hey Ben,

7toX is the way to go. According to Phillip, multicam is fully supported.

Reality shows involve some of the most complex workflows in television production, and FCP X is perfectly fit for this. Endemol-Shine Africa, Metronome Productions Denmark and Blazhoffski Belgium (Warner) are just a few of the major companies I deal with that use FCP X for cutting prime-time reality shows. If your friend would start using FCP X instead, this would make both your lives much easier. Distance-collaboration with FCP X is a breeze if you know how to set up your workflow. Don't send anything back, finish and deliver in X.

I have sent you a link to a video which I have shown at IBC and in which you will see how highly skilled professionals use FCP X to cut tons of reality programs each year. The video cannot be made public because it contains copyright-protected images. But it will give you some ideas you can discuss with your friend. If you need more specific arguments, drop me an e-mail or have them call me.

- Ronny

Thank Ronny! The producer just dropped of a hard drive, and I have missing clips. Trying to relink it seems the name FCPX has for them, and the name of clips on the hard drive are different. I should probably contact Philip about that. I'm assuming the PPro editor renamed clips in his browser, but not on the hard drive, maybe. Yes? Plus a few clips FCPX claims are one second shorter than the physical clip on the hard drive, thus saying the content doesn't match, and can't be relinked. This is an initial run on a network promo, so we're working out the workflow bugs at the moment. All help, info, advice is greatly appreciated, y'all.

That's one of the many pitfalls of working on a same program with different NLEs.

If original file names have been changed after importing, you will get missing clips. You still can relink the missing clips to the renamed files, but you need to do this one by one. Which is quite logical because FCP X has no way of knowing which renamed file corresponds to a specific missing clip. So you have to manually point FCP X to every renamed file on the drive. And yes, that's a real pain if you have hundreds of missing clips.

Other pitfalls are XMP. If the Pr editor has XMP enabled, Pr can change the metadata of the original files which can make relinking in another NLE impossible. This could explain the "content does not match" errors.

Seeing how this is starting out, I think you have a lot of testing to do before this will work.

- Ronny

OK, two last questions here for those of you familiar with PPro.

BTW, I got good info from Philip and Greg about using 7toX. The PPro editor did NOT follow my instructions, so I'm here with a mess that is so indecipherable, it ain't funny. I'm having to send the drive back and have this editor do exactly what I need done. Ugh...

My last 2 questions are:

1- In PPro can multicam edits be collapsed so they are just regular edited timelines, like FCP7 used to do?

2- In PPro can you slim down a project to only the individual sequence you need, and only the related media for it, like FCP7 used to do?

Yes, and yes...

BenB wrote: OK, two last questions here for those of you familiar with PPro.

BTW, I got good info from Philip and Greg about using 7toX. The PPro editor did NOT follow my instructions, so I'm here with a mess that is so indecipherable, it ain't funny. I'm having to send the drive back and have this editor do exactly what I need done. Ugh...

My last 2 questions are:

1- In PPro can multicam edits be collapsed so they are just regular edited timelines, like FCP7 used to do?

2- In PPro can you slim down a project to only the individual sequence you need, and only the related media for it, like FCP7 used to do?

OK, after working with three different PPro project, taking them to FCPX via 7toX, I'm convinced this workflow is not reliable, and far to problematic to be realistic. I'm just going to say it can't be done. If it can, someone needs to tell me what I'm missing. But 7toX with PPro simply doesn't work, waste of time.

1- Far too many clips won't reconnect because FCPX claims they are one second shorter than the original file and the content is different.

2- Far too many clips end up in Connected Storylines, MILES down the Timeline, and connected to empty space in the Primary Storyline. When I try to move them into place, they vanish into thin air.

Ugh... this weekend is going to SUCK...

I feel your pain. The never-ending difference between what is advertised and what really works. And IMO the problem is not with 7toX. It's caused by the way the Pr editor works. Here's a test you should do:

1. Tell that Pr editor to disable XMP. This proprietary Adobe "feature" is notorious for causing havoc in any cross-NLE collaborative workflow. Disabling XMP is the single most important condition to be able to work together with a Pr editor.

2. Then let him import a few clips in Pr. No renaming, no editing, just importing. Let him send you the drive with the original media as well as an XML file of the Pr project. Use 7toX to convert the XML to FCP X XML and see if you can properly relink the clips. I think this will go without any problems.

3. THEN the Pr editor can start editing away and from here on you should be able to exchange projects without too many issues. Important is that you relink the files before any editing is done.

OTOH, there always will be some issues. That's the result of using different editing softwares to work on a project, a concept that I have always refused to implement in any of our workflows.

- Ronny

I'll try the XMP thing. If that doesn't work, I'm telling the producer to go with a full FCPX workflow, or I won't be able to help him. Doing this as a fun job, not because I need the money. Thanks Ronny.

Let me add to my previous post:

4- Playhead (using up/down arrow keys) lines up one frame before a selected clip.

5- Some offline clips have a complete lack of timecode.

If you are doing sound and grading and not re-editing, then why not simply have him send you a flattened, self-contained master file? He would have to make sure all dialogue is reasonably cleaned up and at acceptable levels. You'd simply have to slice the cuts for grading and work with a composite dialogue track for sound. Not ideal, but might be fine and would get you past this issue.

- Oliver

Because grading and sound often require some fudging of edits. I've got sound out of sync, and I've got clips I can see the footage of. How do I do sound (music, sync, etc) without seeing what it is syncing to? And the editor will only send me .m4p files of the video, so I can't grade those. No, I don't have luxuries. And as post production supervisor, working with editors who are young enough to be my children, yes, there are several edits I need to tweak.

Plus, I have to encode it for the network, and I need a full project timeline in an NLE to do that properly and reliably.

I can't speak for the audio... but...
If you get a "master file" from the Editor, DaVinci resolve could do a shot detect and make is super simple for the grading. One could also try an AAF out of PP into daVinci, but that may be a different world of hurt.

I only suggest Davinci, cause it plays a little nicer with PP than FCPX plays with PP.

Good luck,

Again, I can't color grade a web quality .m4v file. And DaVinci, in my current tests, does nothing better than 7toX. If FCPX wold see the clips as the actual duration, instead of shaving one second off of them, I'd be fine.

Thanks for the XMP tip, Ronny. But that is set on import, and we don't have time to have this newbie editor re-import everything and edit again from scratch. So I'm stuck with fixing this danged thing manually.

I never liked mixed NLE workflows much, and now I've decided to never touch it ever again.

Oh well, back to manually fixing things. Shift-F, skim, note TC, switch to online copy of clip, type in TC, Option-R, repeat, and kazillion times... what a waste...

You mentioned .m4p and .m4v files. Neither of these makes sense. What format do you have? If these are .mp4 they may well be camera originals and not compressed versions.

- Oliver

BenB wrote: And as post production supervisor, working with editors who are young enough to be my children, yes, there are several edits I need to tweak.....Plus, I have to encode it for the network, and I need a full project timeline in an NLE to do that properly and reliably.

Sorry for the confusion. Neither of these issues were things you brought up in the original post.

- Oliver

one option to consider is to just ask for the PP project and files...
and get an install of PP on your HD...
then YOU can do the export to whatever you want the way you want.

(Trusting another sloppy editor for something as regular as reality tv is asking for a mess. IMHO.)

I hate cross NLE workflows more now than I ever did.

.mp4, sorry, just rushing through things lately. I usually get those suffixes correct. Stupid typing and brain farts on my part.

Installing PPro is not an option for a variety of reasons.

After I get this mess fixed up, I'm letting the producer (a friend, and FCPX fan) that mixed NLE workflows are very problematic, and a reality TV show needs to be homogenous. Of course I'll site every reality show anywhere I can find being done with FCPX, and recommend it.

Understand, I'm semi-retired, and I get to pick and chose my jobs now. A luxury I am very grateful for, and worked hard many years to achieve. So, I'm not working with a gun to my head. This is a new production, there are normal growing pains, I'm just helping things get up and running for a friend. As frustrating (infuriating) as it may be...

Thanks all for the suggestions and help. And to Philip and Greg for their help with 7toX. I'm going to finish fixing this Timeline, get the work done on time, and make my suggestions to the producer.

I hear you, Ben. You never should accept cranky workflows that people try to force upon you. And yes, I would push the producer into going all FCP X because it simply shines in multi-user workflows. In our country, many of the most popular reality shows are being cut on FCP X. The rest is done on Avid.

- Ronny

Producer agrees that if I move forward with him on this project, we do a full FCPX workflow. But today, I have to fight this supremely messed up hill of technical glitches that is the XML exchange between PPro and FCPX. I've had a couple of folks tell me PPro to Media Composer is not all that smooth, either.