.MXF FILES WRONG REEL NUMBER

neils wrote: timetraveller,

I've understood exactly what you're reporting. I did a similar test but in FCP 7.

Imported DNxHD36 files transcoded (from Red R3D) in Resolve 11.1.3. When drag and drop imported in FCP 7 (yes, FCP 7 also supports Avid DNxHD .mxf media files natively now), I get a long (and wrong) Reel name exactly like you are seeing in FCP X. BTW, In Resolve, the same DNxHD .mxf files show the correct reel name.

When I do a small test edit and save an EDL out of FCP 7, of course the reel names in the EDL are wrong. However, from the same edit if I make an XML and take that into Resolve, Resolve correctly sees Reel names and even relinks to original files. So, the Resolve DNxHD35 .mxf files do have an embedded Reel name, just that FCP 7 does not see it (and in your case FCP X too).

My guess is that .mxf import into FCP 7 and X is working, but the metadata read and import does not work correctly yet.

A bit off topic...
As a test I imported an ALE from Resolve Irelating to the same transcodes), into CinemaTools and made a batch list to take to FCP 7 (like the old film workflow), the ALE does convey correct Reel names to FCP 7, but of course these imported offline clips do not link up to the .mxf files. If I force relink, I get the mismatched Reel name warning, and the Reel name goes back to the long gibberish one.

Please let me know if you find a fix. This could be an interesting Avid-FCP workflow.

Neil Sadwelkar

Hi Neil, thanks for the answer

Your findings are similar to mine, it looks like the problem is in FCPX reading (displaying) the .mxf wrapping metadata.

However, my .xml export the reel number wrong, i.e:

<md key="com.apple.proapps.studio.reel" value="0x060A2B340101010101010F0013000000506EEFACC1DC000D060E2B347F7F2A80"/>


Maybe your .xml works OK in Resolve because it links with the filenames (which exports correctly?

JPM Editor wrote: Hello Time Traveller and welcome to the forum!

Very interesting and informative thread!

I'd like to share with you a few thoughts about the workflow that you are discussing. I hope you find them useful:

• In Resolve, the main difference between exporting MXF (Avid Round-Trip) or MOV (Final Cut Pro Round-Trip), is where the Reel metadata is stored. It seems that each container saves the Reel metadata in a different place. FCPX is not reading this metadata correctly, like if it was looking for it as if the files were MOV. Hopefully Apple will fix this in the next update.


• If you need to generate proxies that are compatible with both Avid and FCPX, I recommend you to use MOVs with whatever codec you prefer (DNxHD36 or ProRes Proxy). Avid can AMA Link to MOV files and read the ProRes codec in PC and Mac, but it can only encode ProRes on a Mac.


• I totally understand the need to generate the proxies outside of FCPX, in software like Resolve. It has some advantages:

1. In FCPX, in order to generate proxies, first you would need to store the original files in the edit suite locally and that takes a lot of disk space in a feature film like you are describing.


2. The proxies that FCPX generates are half the resolution of your 2K original media. I don't think the quality of the half-res proxies is going to be enough for the director.


3. The proxies generated in FCPX don't have the custom 3D LUT burnt in. Even if you use a plugin like LUT Utility, you would have to manually apply the LUT to the clips in the timeline (you can't do that in the Browser, so the source footage would always look washed out, making your director really mad).

That's why I also think that encoding the proxies in Resolve is better for this particular project. If you go with "MOV - ProRes Proxy or DNxHD36", you shouldn't have any problems either with FCPX or AVID.

The only big caveat that I see is: if you decide to switch back to Avid in the middle of the project (I really hope not!), how are you going to translate to Avid all the work already done in FCPX?

- You could export the edited projects as XMLs and then open them in Resolve and export to AAF from there... But it's far from being a seamless workflow.
- And what about all the logging work: clip notes, markers, synchronization, keywords, etc.?

Hi JPM!

Thanks a lot for your detailed answer.

1. I agree that working with .mov it's the best solution. You can even fast-import the files instead of linking them. This way you have them much more "under control" inside you Avid Media folder.

2.I'm glad to see that somebody understands the need of working with transcoded files
Thanks for clarifiying about custom LUTS. I didn't know that I have to apply it in the timeline: too bad.

3.If I had to go back, I'd push to do it in FCP7, as going back to Avid would be a nightmare.


best regards!

I’m glad that you found my answer useful, Timetraveller.

I’m very interested in this workflow as well, so I’ve been doing some testings with Alexa sample footage downloaded from Arri’s website . I have to admit that the results are not very promising. It seems that, for now, there is no compatible workflow between FCPX-Resolve-Avid.

As everybody knows, besides de ARRIRAW option, the Alexa shoots in two different formats: DNxHD (MXF container) or ProRes (MOV container). Although the two NLEs (Avid and FCPX) claim to be compatible with both of these formats, the truth is that Avid only fully supports the DNxHD-MXF option from the Alexa, and FCPX only the ProRes-MOV option:

FCPX - Alexa files straight from camera:

• If you import the DNxHD-MXF files into FCPX, you can edit them normally, but you loose all the metadata, including the Reel Name (a weird long name shows instead).


• But if you import the ProRes-MOV files into FCPX, you get the Reel Name properly.

Avid - Alexa files straight from camera:

• If you AMA Link (or Fast Import) the ProRes-MOV files into Avid, you can edit them as well, but you don’t get the proper metadata (no Reel Name either).


• On the contrary, if you Link to the MXF files with the Alexa AMA plug-in, you get tons of metadata, including the proper Reel Name.

Clearly, the Alexa doesn’t record in two different formats to give us more flexibility. It seems like Arri designed each specific workflow for each NLE. If you mix them up, you will most certainly run into problems. So it is not an FCPX specific problem, it is the old NLE war between Avid and FCP and their inability to speak to each other properly, what complicates our workflows.

Creating dailies inside Resolve 11:

Anyway, if you create your dailies in Resolve, you should stick with the only format (ProRes- MOV) that works with your NLE of choice (FCPX). If you need to change NLE in the middle of the project, I agree that it is far more secure to switch to FCP7 than Avid. After all, there is a more secure path, thanks to Xto7!

Resolve 11 has specific Easy Setups for each NLE as well:

• Avid AAF Round-Trip: we can only choose the MXF container with this easy setup. Resolve will export an AAF and the dailies as MXF files. If there is reference audio, you will end up with one MXF file for each channel of audio, along the video MXF file. This is the way Avid works internally with its own media. Yes, you can import this files into FCPX, but they will be treated as separate files (you would have to sync each clip with its own audio), and what’s even worse, FCPX won’t be able to display the Reel Name properly. Would it be able to export it later in a FCPXML? Maybe, but I haven’t tried it. In any case, this will only get you to Resolve… to take this metadata to Avid, you need to convert this FCPXML to AAF inside Resolve and you most certainly will run into problems (read this interesting Creative Cow post ).


• Final Cut Pro XML Round-Trip: we can choose MOV as a container, but also MXF… If you choose MOV, Resolve will export an FCPXML and the dailies as MOV files (if there is reference audio, it will be embedded in the Quicktime files). Yes, you can fast import or AMA Link this MOV files in Avid, but it will completely ignore all the Alexa metadata and you won’t get the Reel Names at all. If you choose MXF inside the FCP XML Roun-Trip Easy Setup, you end up with a FCPXML and split MXF files (one per channel, not one per take). This option doesn’t seem to work with Avid nor FCPX properly, so I don’t know why it’s there in the first place…

To sum this up, all these issues could be solved (resulting in a compatible FCPX-AVID post-production pipeline) if ONLY ONE of the following things happens:

• If the Final Cut Pro XML Round-Trip with MXF container in DaVinci Resolve 11 actually worked for both NLEs: FCPX would get the metadata from the fcpxml, and Avid from the MXF files.


• If FCPX was able to extract the Reel Name properly from the MXF files (it’s supposedly embedded in the file header).


• If Avid was able to extract the Reel Name properly from the MOV files (it’s supposedly embedded in the file header).


• If FCPX supported the AAF format - very unlikely.


• If Avid supported the FCPXML format - very unlikely.


• If Arri’s cameras worked with one universal container supported in all NLEs, like most camera manufactures do (Red, Canon, Sony, etc.). - also very unlikely.

Sorry for the long post, but it's note easy to break down all these different workflows in a clear way. I hope that I managed to do it.

I think there could be a solution for your "ARRI Alexa - Avid/FCPX" workflow after all, Time Traveller.

There is an application made by ARRI called "Meta Extract" that would allow you to extract all the metadata from the Resolve MXF dailies (exported with the Avid-Roundtrip Easy Setup) in the universal *.CSV format.

Then, you would import all the MXF files into FCPX. The Reel name would show up all wrong, but you can fix this easily:

• You select the event, and export a FCPXML.


• In a program called Shot Notes X, you would then import the FCPXML and the CSV file from Arri Meta Extract. Shot Notes X will merge the metadata from the CSV file into a new FCPXML.


• Finally, you would import the new FCPXML with all the metadata into FCPX.

I haven't tested this workflow, but in theory it should work. In the end, you would have all the dailies in the way that you want, with the correct metadata in both Avid (from Resolve's AAF) and FCPX (from Shot Notes X's FCPXML).

But there is still a tricky part: how could you export your timeline from FCPX to AVID if you decide to switch later? Here are a couple ideas:

• From FCPX, Export an FCPXML > Open it in EDL-X and convert it into an EDL > In AVID, import the EDL.


• From FCPX, Export an FCPXML > Open it in Resolve 11 and convert it into an AAF > In AVID, import the AAF.

If the audio doesn't come through properly:

• From FCPX, Export an FCPXML > Open it in X2Pro and convert it into an AAF > In AVID, import the AAF.

Well, I hope this helps. Let us know what you end up doing, Time Traveller. I'm sure it will be interesting. And if anyone else tries any of these solutions, please share your findings! Thanks in advance,

Jesús

JPM Editor wrote: I think there could be a solution for your "ARRI Alexa - Avid/FCPX" workflow after all, Time Traveller.

There is an application made by ARRI called "Meta Extract" that would allow you to extract all the metadata from the Resolve MXF dailies (exported with the Avid-Roundtrip Easy Setup) in the universal *.CSV format.

Then, you would import all the MXF files into FCPX. The Reel name would show up all wrong, but you can fix this easily:

• You select the event, and export a FCPXML.


• In a program called Shot Notes X, you would then import the FCPXML and the CSV file from Arri Meta Extract. Shot Notes X will merge the metadata from the CSV file into a new FCPXML.


• Finally, you would import the new FCPXML with all the metadata into FCPX.

I haven't tested this workflow, but in theory it should work. In the end, you would have all the dailies in the way that you want, with the correct metadata in both Avid (from Resolve's AAF) and FCPX (from Shot Notes X's FCPXML).

But there is still a tricky part: how could you export your timeline from FCPX to AVID if you decide to switch later? Here are a couple ideas:

• From FCPX, Export an FCPXML > Open it in EDL-X and convert it into an EDL > In AVID, import the EDL.


• From FCPX, Export an FCPXML > Open it in Resolve 11 and convert it into an AAF > In AVID, import the AAF.

If the audio doesn't come through properly:

• From FCPX, Export an FCPXML > Open it in X2Pro and convert it into an AAF > In AVID, import the AAF.

Well, I hope this helps. Let us know what you end up doing, Time Traveller. I'm sure it will be interesting. And if anyone else tries any of these solutions, please share your findings! Thanks in advance,

Jesús

Hi Jesús,

Thanks a lot for your detailed answers

1. Shot Notes X is great, and the workflow you propose should work, but I haven't tested it because we'll finally use .mov files (DNxHD36 or ProRes)

2. To go back to Avid the most solid solution seems to be FCXML to AAF in Resolve 11.
Resolve becomes greater in each update and I'm sure it will be a standard in many workflows thanks to how versatile it is.

3.To export audio for finishing, Instead of X2Pro, I use FCPXML > open it in Logic Pro X > export AAF for Avid.
I've had problems in the past with X2Pro, the AAF had missing clips when opened in ProTools.
Maybe they've solved it, but now I prefer Logic X.
I actually use it to make some tweaking in the audio before sending the AAF to whoever is going to make the sound in ProTools.

Best regards!

Your welcome, timetraveller!

timetraveller wrote: 1. Shot Notes X is great, and the workflow you propose should work, but I haven't tested it because we'll finally use .mov files (DNxHD36 or ProRes)

I assume that these .MOV files are dailies created in Resolve? They should be fine in FCPX. But have you tried to import them in AVID? In all my testings, Media Composer didn't extract the Reel Name metadata from the Quicktimes...

timetraveller wrote: 2. To go back to Avid the most solid solution seems to be FCXML to AAF in Resolve 11.
Resolve becomes greater in each update and I'm sure it will be a standard in many workflows thanks to how versatile it is.

There might be some issues with the conversion. Check out this thread at Creative Cow. Have you tested this out already? Does Resolve translate the Reel Name metadata properly from the FCPXML to the AAF?

timetraveller wrote: 3.To export audio for finishing, Instead of X2Pro, I use FCPXML > open it in Logic Pro X > export AAF for Avid.
I've had problems in the past with X2Pro, the AAF had missing clips when opened in ProTools.
Maybe they've solved it, but now I prefer Logic X.
I actually use it to make some tweaking in the audio before sending the AAF to whoever is going to make the sound in ProTools.

Ah, the Logic route! I forgot to mention it. It seems that FCPXML support has been improved in the latest version (Logic 10.1). When it came out, I thought that we might finally have an Apple alternative to X2Pro. If more people starts using Logic as a bridge between FCPX and ProTools, a few of them might as well decide to stay in Logic and do all the sound mix in there... it only seems natural.

Well, good luck with the feature film!
I'm sure FCPX will be up to the task and you won't need to go back to Avid or FCP7.

Jesús
@jesus_edits

JPM Editor wrote: I assume that these .MOV files are dailies created in Resolve? They should be fine in FCPX. But have you tried to import them in AVID? In all my testings, Media Composer didn't extract the Reel Name metadata from the Quicktimes...

Inside Resolve, the first and CRITICAL step when creating the dailies from Alexa ProRes is:

File > Project Settings > Master Project settings > Conform Options > CHECK Assist using reel names from > Embedding in source clip file


This is not turned on by default...

This way, Resolve inserts the Reel name in the metadata of the whatever format file you export.



Best regards!

timetraveller wrote:
Inside Resolve, the first and CRITICAL step when creating the dailies from Alexa ProRes is:

File > Project Settings > Master Project settings > Conform Options > CHECK Assist using reel names from > Embedding in source clip file


This is not turned on by default...

This way, Resolve inserts the Reel name in the metadata of the whatever format file you export.

Thanks for pointing this out. It is a very big GOTCHA indeed! It took me a bit to figure it out as well.

But even with that option activated, in my testings AVID ignored the embedded metadata of the Quicktime files from Resolve. FCPX, on the other hand, understood it perfectly.

Just wanted to alert you to prevent you from getting in trouble! But if you have figured out a way to make it work properly, maybe there is something I didn't do correctly. I'll have to double check.

Cheers,

Jesús
@jesus_edits