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Lot of questions at a time

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09 Apr 2012 18:48 #6694 by Andreas Kiel
Lot of questions at a time was created by Andreas Kiel
This Easter weekend I thought I should try Multicam/Multiclip again (didn't work for me/us as most of the video doesn't have sound, sound is always external and scene/take do come from the audio, which is multiple mono). And yes, our workflow is tape-less.

Here are the questions (and I really hope I'm doing something wrong and somebody out there can tell me the way how to do).

1) First the audio. All scene/take settings are imported correctly. When I do synchronize them with 10.0.3 they are in sync sometimes, but the new compound needs to be re-edited to have the right name -- and what's even more important the timecode is lost. So I'm lost in this case as well. This makes this workflow useless for me obviously. What I'm doing wrong?
Okay I could use the free WaveAgent from Sound Devices to create polyphonic files upfront - but that will lead to other problems.

2) New approach: sorting Audio and Video by TC, then merge the matching ones (needs a lot of time to figure out sometimes to find the right ones). But here as well; needs a re-edit of the name and to get back scene and take of those as well and TC is lost again. So no use for that as well -- specially because there is nothing in sync.

3) Another approach: Taking the compound from approach 2 and re-sync manually by a clapper, then create a new project with the matching timecode (that one from the original with what ever came first audio or video) and scene/take name, edit to the project and export as movie. Then import this movie. Re-edit scene/take from the given file name. Do that for each take of every camera and then create multiclips which might be in sync. Not the best choice for me/us.

4) Next approach: I take the first part of approach 3 (which includes approach 2) and create a multiclip from the compounds. Then I edit the multiclip to the timeline. But the audio seems to be gone. I see the waveform, but can't hear anything -- adding additional audio works fine and I can use the multiclip editor and the audio is there and I can here it.

5) Another try: Select all clips of the event and create a multiclip timeline from there. This works because you can select TC in the options -- all stuff is in sync. But (and this is a big BUT) I got a 96 channel multiclip (in the test example I used with 1 card each from 2 cameras) and it's totally unusable, beside the fact the the "reels" scene/takes are lost anyway.

6) A new try again: Using our inhouse app* to sync audio and video to write referenced synched clips with the audio metadata (scene/take/note) kept. Works fine and fast(within seconds) with this app -- but TC and scene/take/note don't make it over to FCPX. So this is useless as well.

7) And a new try again: Using our inhouse app* to sync audio and video to write self-contained synched clips with the audio metadata (scene/take/note) kept. Takes more time to write about 100 gigs in my test setup. The files show up in FCPX with the correct TC. Scene/take/note are not recognized. Multiclip works fine with audio.

8) No idea anymore

*) The app looks for QT TC tracks and LTC, syncs based on those infos and creates QT movies and an XML for FCP, which is useless with FCPX as everybody knows. And even if I would create FCPXMLs (you need several of them for one project) scene/take/note (which is just the basic stuff) can't be transported with FCPXML.

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09 Apr 2012 19:09 - 09 Apr 2012 19:09 #6698 by BenB
Replied by BenB on topic Re: Lot of questions at a time
Take your video asset, and your audio asset, and sync them. Use those sync'ed compound clips for your Multiclip. Make a marker in each at the same word or sound somewhere as a "rough sync" marker. Then sync them all by audio. This way FCP X only searches the areas around the markers. Then you don't have to worry about TC sycn.
Last edit: 09 Apr 2012 19:09 by BenB.

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09 Apr 2012 19:28 - 09 Apr 2012 20:09 #6708 by Andreas Kiel
Replied by Andreas Kiel on topic Re: Lot of questions at a time
Thanks Ben for your immediate reply.

But this won't work with the material we normally get (and this applies to many others than me)

We need the TC/scene/take/note to make the show work - different from FCP there is no chance to change the TC.
Sync by audio doesn't work as well as the cams quite often do have different audio "attached". The solution could be to merge all audio upfront -- but as said it will cause other problems and time to organize.

To make it a bit clearer, here is a half day of 2 cam production for a daily soap.
Code:
05 A Touch Of Frost.m4a 07 Little Annie-Ooh.m4a 2010-10-19 08_07_56 (id).mov 2010-10-19 08_14_25 (id).mov 2010-10-19 08_14_36 (id).mov 2010-10-19 08_19_13 (id).mov 2010-10-19 08_19_18 (id).mov 2010-10-19 08_25_03 (id).mov 2010-10-19 08_25_09 (id).mov 2010-10-19 08_45_41 (id).mov 2010-10-19 08_45_47 (id).mov 2010-10-19 08_48_05 (id).mov 2010-10-19 08_52_18 (id).mov 2010-10-19 08_52_21 (id).mov 2010-10-19 08_54_10 (id).mov 2010-10-19 08_54_16 (id).mov 2010-10-19 08_57_10 (id).mov 2010-10-19 08_57_14 (id).mov 2010-10-19 09_14_17 (id).mov 2010-10-19 09_14_21 (id).mov 2010-10-19 09_16_57 (id).mov 2010-10-19 09_17_05 (id).mov 2010-10-19 09_21_43 (id).mov 2010-10-19 09_21_47 (id).mov 2010-10-19 09_24_31 (id).mov 2010-10-19 09_24_35 (id).mov 2010-10-19 09_28_38 (id).mov 2010-10-19 09_28_45 (id).mov 2010-10-19 09_47_15 (id).mov 2010-10-19 09_47_20 (id).mov 2010-10-19 09_58_09 (id).mov 2010-10-19 09_58_27 (id).mov 2010-10-19 10_00_20 (id).mov 2010-10-19 10_00_27 (id).mov 2010-10-19 10_02_34 (id).mov 2010-10-19 10_02_41 (id).mov 2010-10-19 10_10_46 (id).mov 2010-10-19 10_10_57 (id).mov 2010-10-19 10_13_07 (id).mov 2010-10-19 10_13_14 (id).mov 2010-10-19 10_16_54 (id).mov 2010-10-19 10_16_57 (id).mov 2010-10-19 10_32_17 (id).mov 2010-10-19 10_32_24 (id).mov 2010-10-19 10_34_06 (id) (fcp1).mov 2010-10-19 10_34_06 (id).mov 2010-10-19 10_34_16 (id).mov 2010-10-19 10_40_15 (id).mov 2010-10-19 10_46_23 (id).mov 2010-10-19 10_48_51 (id).mov 2010-10-19 10_49_35 (id).mov 2010-10-19 11_14_02 (id).mov 2010-10-19 11_15_50 (id).mov 2010-10-19 11_20_47 (id).mov 2010-10-19 11_24_32 (id).mov 2010-10-19 11_49_27 (id).mov 2010-10-19 11_51_28 (id).mov 2010-10-19 11_52_42 (id).mov 2010-10-19 11_56_40 (id).mov 2010-10-19 11_59_53 (id).mov 2010-10-19 12_25_38 (id).mov 2010-10-19 12_31_15 (id).mov 2010-10-19 12_34_54 (id).mov 2010-10-19 12_36_14 (id).mov 2010-10-19 12_43_19 (id).mov 2010-10-19 12_51_33 (id).mov 651001T01_1 (id).wav 651001T01_2 (id).wav 651001T01_3 (id).wav 651001T01_4 (id).wav 651002T01_1 (id).wav 651002T01_2 (id).wav 651002T01_3 (id).wav 651002T01_4 (id).wav 651003T01_1 (id).wav 651003T01_2 (id).wav 651003T01_3 (id).wav 651003T01_4 (id).wav 651003T02_1 (id).wav 651003T02_2 (id).wav 651003T02_3 (id).wav 651003T02_4 (id).wav 651301T01_1 (id).wav 651301T01_3 (id).wav 651301T02_1 (id).wav 651301T02_3 (id).wav 651302T01_1 (id).wav 651302T01_3 (id).wav 651302T02_1 (id).wav 651302T02_3 (id).wav 651303T01_1 (id).wav 651303T01_3 (id).wav 651304T01_1 (id).wav 651304T01_3 (id).wav 651701T01_1 (id).wav 651701T01_3 (id).wav 651701T02_1 (id).wav 651701T02_3 (id).wav 651701T03_1 (id).wav 651701T03_3 (id).wav 651702T01_1 (id).wav 651702T01_3 (id).wav 651702T02_1 (id).wav 651702T02_3 (id).wav 651901T01_1 (id).wav 651901T01_3 (id).wav 651902T01_1 (id).wav 651902T01_3 (id).wav 651903T01_1 (id).wav 651903T01_3 (id).wav 651903T02_1 (id).wav 651903T02_3 (id).wav 651904T01_1 (id).wav 651904T01_3 (id).wav 652301T01_1 (id).wav 652301T01_3 (id).wav 652301T02_1 (id).wav 652301T02_3 (id).wav 652302T01_1 (id).wav 652302T01_3 (id).wav 660601T01_1 (id).wav 660601T01_3 (id).wav 660602T01_1 (id).wav 660602T01_3 (id).wav 661001T01_2 (id).wav 661001T01_4 (id).wav 661002T01_1 (id).wav 661002T01_3 (id).wav 661002T02_1 (id).wav 661002T02_3 (id).wav 661002T03_1 (id).wav 661002T03_3 (id).wav 661003T01_1 (id).wav 661003T01_3 (id).wav 661401T01_1 (id).wav 661401T01_3 (id).wav 661402T01_1 (id).wav 661402T01_3 (id).wav 661403T01_1 (id).wav 661403T01_3 (id).wav 661501T01_1 (id).wav 661501T01_3 (id).wav 661501T02_1 (id).wav 661501T02_3 (id).wav 661502T01_1 (id).wav 661502T01_3 (id).wav 661503T01_1 (id).wav 661503T01_3 (id).wav 661503T02_1 (id).wav 661503T02_3 (id).wav 661503T03_1 (id).wav 661503T03_3 (id).wav 661701T01_2 (id).wav 661701T01_4 (id).wav 661701T02_2 (id).wav 661701T02_4 (id).wav 661702-1-2.mov 661702T01_2 (id).wav 661702T01_4 (id).wav 661703T01_2 (id).wav 661703T01_4 (id).wav Export Project 1.mov

It's definitively no fun to sync them all by hand, rename, add scene/take/note and angle for each of them. And it takes lot of time to check those files and create multiclips and rename them to start editing.

Andreas
Last edit: 09 Apr 2012 20:09 by Andreas Kiel. Reason: make it clearer

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09 Apr 2012 20:25 #6714 by BenB
Replied by BenB on topic Re: Lot of questions at a time
How would you have done this in FCP 7?

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09 Apr 2012 20:50 - 09 Apr 2012 20:51 #6716 by Andreas Kiel
Replied by Andreas Kiel on topic Re: Lot of questions at a time
With FCP and XMEML we were able to use my custom app, which was/is XML based. Different from FCPXML we were able to import all metadata. That's why I "complain" about FCPX's XML features.

Here is a movie showing how we were/are using different types of TC to sync and match the clips. I was using a not too fast FW drive. The screen recording also made the process slower. The movie is not edited -- so it's real time.

www.spherico.com/filmtools/multiSync/multiSyncLTC.mov
17 MB

-Andreas
Last edit: 09 Apr 2012 20:51 by Andreas Kiel.

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09 Apr 2012 21:13 #6718 by BenB
Replied by BenB on topic Re: Lot of questions at a time
You need to speak to Philip Hodgetts about updating your app to work with FCPXML, or some workflow using their Xto7 and 7toX apps. Yes, when you're dealing with custom apps, these issues arise.

What type of cameras are you using?

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09 Apr 2012 21:53 - 09 Apr 2012 22:28 #6719 by Andreas Kiel
Replied by Andreas Kiel on topic Re: Lot of questions at a time
I will speak to Philip in the next time, but definitively not about how to upgrade my app.
Philip and me are some of those guys in the world who know very much about XML for FCP(X).
He as same as me has influenced a lot of the XML development for FCP.
Now both of of us (as same as many others) are a little concerned about what's the actual FCPXML can transport.
Philip and Greg did a great job with their FCP to FCPX and FCPX to FCP apps, but both of them though can't transport metadata in a way it's needed for big productions. It's not their fault; FCPXL doesn't give the options with XML, SQL (which is an FCPX project) allows to read projects as well, but all important metadata are kept in an "Apple Private Core Data" which is not documented, additionally these data can be just a "RAM snapshot" which means they might be not that reliable.

Back to the original problem -- any other thoughts.

-Andreas

P.S. Forgot the cams. Panasonic different types, Alexa, Canon DSLRs
Last edit: 09 Apr 2012 22:28 by Andreas Kiel.

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09 Apr 2012 22:14 #6720 by BenB
Replied by BenB on topic Re: Lot of questions at a time
I'm familiar with the Postgres database engine FCP X borrowed from FCSvr. I hope Apple beefs it back up like it was in FCSvr, rather then the much watered down version we have now. I've done tons of work with FCSvr systems.

I think your workflow is too complex and time consuming for any easy workflow in FCP X, short of updating your custom app. But obviously we'd have to wait for Apple to beef up FCPXML, too. Which I'm sure will happen eventually.

Tough challenge you have there.

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10 Apr 2012 06:24 #6732 by Seanus
Replied by Seanus on topic Re: Lot of questions at a time
Don't know if this would help, but you are aware that you can set a custom timecode on a compound clip? So you could make your compound clips have the same timecode as your originals.
Sean Lander - Editing since 1982 - AVID 1991 - FCP 1999 - FCPX 2011

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10 Apr 2012 16:30 #6737 by Andreas Kiel
Replied by Andreas Kiel on topic Re: Lot of questions at a time
Thanks for that hint,

I tried it before, but gave up on that as well since I wasn't able to change the TC of the compound once it was created.

But I will give it another try.


Anyway, as I said (and Ben confirmed) the biggest lack seems to be current XML support as you can't add metadata from outside -- or at least only very basic stuff, which in my case is useless.

-Andreas

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10 Apr 2012 20:08 #6744 by BenB
Replied by BenB on topic Re: Lot of questions at a time
Fill out the feedback page, for sure!!!!

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11 Apr 2012 05:10 #6788 by Seanus
Replied by Seanus on topic Re: Lot of questions at a time
You can actually change the timecode of a compound clip once it's been created.
Just have it active and click on the gear in the info panel, select custom and change it.
Sean Lander - Editing since 1982 - AVID 1991 - FCP 1999 - FCPX 2011

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11 Apr 2012 09:44 #6795 by BenB
Replied by BenB on topic Re: Lot of questions at a time
Andreas, check this out:

assistedediting.intelligentassistance.com/Sync-N-Link-X/

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11 Apr 2012 15:25 #6803 by Andreas Kiel
Replied by Andreas Kiel on topic Re: Lot of questions at a time
Thanks Ben,

I know the app, still leaves the question open how to get scene/take over.
As said there is no way with XML at this time. Worst thing is that FCPXML won't accept AUX TCs, which may be an LTC which makes it even more senseless.

So I can stay with my app, create self contained files (to make sure FCPX finds the correct TC)
then create a new event with XML -- which is somehow useless, as you can just import those files and then edit scene/take/angle, then create multiclips and re-edit scene/take angle again.

My personal result: FCPX is faster then FCP when editing. The pain preparing the clips is the same or even worse with FCPX. And there is still the audio issue with FCPX.

As you saw in the movie, it's quite fast to do all the sync using my app (which in itself uses XMEML and QT). You are ready to edit within a few minutes instead of hours.
My app is mainly used to create synched clips or multiclips for "outdoor shooting" (with studio there is not a real problem)
My main customer produces 7 soaps per day (at different locations) where "outdoor" is 10 to 15 percent only per soap in many cases. Using the approaches I wrote at the beginning (or trying to use other available apps) didn't make it as fast as needed (or better wanted).

Here a big "Thank you" for Seanus. We all did not realize that this option is there.

-Andreas

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