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25 Jan 2021
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Possible to mark points of interest in multicam angles for use as cut cues? 22 Nov 2021 16:30 #117595

I feel like I am missing something fundamental here. Either fundamental functionality, or - more likely - fundamental knowledge of FCPX.

I regularly edit multicam projects that have anywhere from two to thirty-plus angles. There are rarely more than eight or nine overlapping at any given point, but it's plenty to keep track of — particularly when there are no visual cues to indicate a desired audio cut point. That's what I am having trouble with.

I often go through each of the angles in a particular section of video and place timeline markers at points of interest. Then, when the video is playing in real-time, I have a visual reference for cut points to consider. The problem: those markers have to be placed on the project timeline in order for them to be visible when cutting between angles. The more logical place for markers is on the angles themselves, but marks added to a clip in the angle editor are not visible outside of the angle editor.

My solution is hardly ideal. What am I missing?

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Possible to mark points of interest in multicam angles for use as cut cues? 22 Nov 2021 21:53 #117607

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30+ angles? What are you filming? Why so many cameras?

Markers made on clips inside the Angle Editor are only visible there, correct. I do not think there is a way to carry them over to a Project timeline. You'd think there would be, though.

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Possible to mark points of interest in multicam angles for use as cut cues? 23 Nov 2021 05:33 #117614

I'm with Ben: 30+ angles??? That's … a lot ;)

I don't get exactly your workflow… for my weekly soccer-reports, I skimmed thru the 'Main' camera's pics and set In/Out points; then I synched that as a Main-Cam (=only preselected scenes in my projects timeline) with the up to 5 other cams material (luckily, sports have a natural synch-point - the ref's whistle) in a Multicam … in the resulting storyline, I'm able to select the angle I want, and everything in perfect synch.

Cause in a MultiCam I don't need stuff 'outside' the main (edited) timeline.- MultiCam is meant für synching stuff, not for emulating tracks.-

So, why do you preselect BEFORE you have a main storyline … which could be a no-video/audio only storyline, just to mention that?

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Possible to mark points of interest in multicam angles for use as cut cues? 23 Nov 2021 07:27 #117615

30+ angles? What are you filming? Why so many cameras?

Markers made on clips inside the Angle Editor are only visible there, correct. I do not think there is a way to carry them over to a Project timeline. You'd think there would be, though.

Bummer. Any clever ideas as to how I can create visual cues for particular cut points? The biggest challenge, IMO, is differentiating between the angles. Marking the timeline isn’t the biggest deal. Marking the timeline and being able to know which angle the mark is referring to… that’s another story.

I produce two YouTube channels: Real World Police and What You Haven’t Seen . Both only publish original reporting. The former covers US law enforcement and crime, and the latter covers transportation safety. Daily audience fluctuates between a quarter million and one-million-plus unique viewers. Multicam is almost exclusively for Real World Police.

To directly answer your question: I am not filming anything. The police are.

FCPX multicam and Real World Police are made for each other. Multicam is certainly not necessary for the show’s production — after all, I didn’t even know that FCPX had a multicam workflow until this year — but for certain calls, it’s not unheard of for there to be dozens of responding police officers. Oftentimes, every officer on scene is recording first-person video and audio. For agencies that use body cameras, dash cameras, and cage cameras, you can easily have three video and audio streams for each responding officer.

Here
is an example of a recent story I published that uses twelve angles.

Update: the video I intended to link the first time around. I suggest watching the scene at ~6:20 for a sense of how I use multicam.

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Last edit: by realworldmedia. Reason: added link to correct video

Possible to mark points of interest in multicam angles for use as cut cues? 23 Nov 2021 20:06 #117623

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I think you need to do more selective sectioning of shots before even making a multicam, as Karsten said. If you go through and do media management first, marking what's useful, what's not, then put your multi cams together, weed out what you'll never use.

Drop the multicam into a Project timeline, and then go through it. When you get to points where you want to use one angle or the other, why make a marker rather than an edit cut there? Seems making markers then going through it all a second time to make edits, doubles your work time.

As a former professional dog trainer, I do some volunteer work for a local K9 unit, so I'm very familiar with police work. When dozens of officers show up to a crime scene, most of them are a waste of media, in my experience. Again, as I said before, and as Karsten said, go through and tag what's really usable to tell the story, and use only that, discard the rest, BEFORE even making a multicam.

Also, and I do this often, make several small multicams of specific people/events/techniques, and then put them together in a Project for a longer, full show segment.

It seems you're doing "string outs" with multicams, which is not smart workflow. String outs are also counter to how FCP optimizes workflow.

Don't see any link to the recent story.

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Last edit: by Ben Balser.

Possible to mark points of interest in multicam angles for use as cut cues? 23 Nov 2021 21:23 #117627

I think you need to do more selective sectioning of shots before even making a multicam, as Karsten said. If you go through and do media management first, marking what's useful, what's not, then put your multi cams together, weed out what you'll never use.

That sounds like exactly what I want to be able to do. I want to mark what's useful and what's not on the angle/clip level.

Then what?

When I am editing, I have already rejected the clips/angles that I am not using at all. What I am working with are some number of angles, each of which has at least one section of video, audio, or both that I want to use in the final product. The problem I have is that there is no way to remind myself - in the timeline - of all the points at which I want to cut to a particular angle.

A multicam clip is a container for ordered and synchronized angles. It keeps them that way – while still allowing access to the individual angles through the multicam clip itself – as you cut between angles in the timeline angle editor. I don't see how I can weed out parts of the angles in advance of creating the multicam clip. If I remove the sections that I don't intend to use from the angles prior to creating the multicam, how would I sync all of those small sections of the angles? Remember, they don't have timecodes.

Drop the multicam into a Project timeline, and then go through it. When you get to points where you want to use one angle or the other, why make a marker rather than an edit cut there? Seems making markers then going through it all a second time to make edits, doubles your work time.

That is exactly what I do, in the timeline using the angle editor. The problem I have is how do I know that I am at a point that I want to switch angles? It is often the case that there are no visual cues.


Also, and I do this often, make several small multicams of specific people/events/techniques, and then put them together in a Project for a longer, full show segment.

I do this too. Same question still applies.

It seems you're doing "string outs" with multicams, which is not smart workflow. String outs are also counter to how FCP optimizes workflow.

I don't know what "string outs" are, but I initially learned to use multicam by reading Apple's multicam workflow guide , so I would be surprised if I am doing something fundamentally wrong. It's certainly possible, though. What are "string outs?"

Don't see any link to the recent story.

Weird. Not sure what happened to the link. Here is a different, also fairly-recent video. It should start playing around 5:55. The scenes that immediately follow are a good example of multicam with around a dozen useful angles.

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Last edit: by realworldmedia. Reason: Formatting, English.

Possible to mark points of interest in multicam angles for use as cut cues? 24 Nov 2021 06:39 #117630

…. Here is a different, also fairly-recent video. It should start playing around 5:55. The scenes that immediately follow are a good example of multicam with around a dozen useful angles.

your example starts at "=608s" as the URL tells ... but anyhow:
You lost me here, because I do NOT see a good example of MC - just 'straight' A/B-editing of two body-cams in use… So, what was suggested by others: do tagging, keywording, and smart-collections BEFORE editing - then slam it together in the storyline...

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Possible to mark points of interest in multicam angles for use as cut cues? 24 Nov 2021 13:42 #117632

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"It is often the case that there are no visual cues."

Do you have Angles enabled in the Viewer, so you can see them all at once?

And based on Karsten's last post, I'm now curious if Multicam is actually what you should be doing? Unfortunately I do not see any links to any examples of anything here, so I can't see whatever y'all are talking about.

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Last edit: by Ben Balser.

Possible to mark points of interest in multicam angles for use as cut cues? 24 Nov 2021 16:11 #117635

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...I regularly edit multicam projects that have anywhere from two to thirty-plus angles. There are rarely more than eight or nine overlapping at any given point, but it's plenty to keep track of...I often go through each of the angles in a particular section of video and place timeline markers at points of interest. Then, when the video is playing in real-time, I have a visual reference for cut points to consider. The problem: those markers have to be placed on the project timeline in order for them to be visible when cutting between angles. The more logical place for markers is on the angles themselves, but marks added to a clip in the angle editor are not visible outside of the angle editor....My solution is hardly ideal. What am I missing?

I think you have a valid point. Although the FCPX range-based rating and keywording system works well, it was originally envisioned and designed by Randy Ubillos for single-camera use. After FCPX was released, multicam was later added. It has never truly felt like a deeply integrated foundational design element, although later versions have improved certain aspects.

The original FCPX workflow concept was first do much of the work in the event browser, marking ranges for favorites, rejects and keywords. Then engage the filters, all the chaff falls away and you then (and only then) start adding items to the timeline. That works well for a single-cam documentary, and for curating a selection of multi-cam selects involving less than about 4-6 angles.

In a filtered multicam range, there is no built-in way to signify what underlying angle warrants the favorite or keyword, but with < 4-6 angles and tight filtering it's often obvious to the editor.

It works less well for a big "wall to wall" >= 8-camera multicam live performance. Your reality show apparently doesn't require an unbroken chronological timeline, but you have lots of angles. A marker, favorite or keyword range is done based on editor assessment of an *angle*. However as FCP is currently designed, those tags exist only at the container level. IMO when you mark a range on the multicam, FCP should record the monitoring angle and the UI should visually reinforce that, but it does not.

When placing markers on multicam clips in the event browser, you could try naming the marker for the angle. The timeline would inherit that from selects in the browser. In the timeline you could double-click on the marker to see the angle designation or even search on those using the timeline index. That's just a workaround but maybe it would help.

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Possible to mark points of interest in multicam angles for use as cut cues? 24 Nov 2021 17:01 #117639

…. Here is a different, also fairly-recent video. It should start playing around 5:55. The scenes that immediately follow are a good example of multicam with around a dozen useful angles.

your example starts at "=608s" as the URL tells ... but anyhow:
You lost me here, because I do NOT see a good example of MC - just 'straight' A/B-editing of two body-cams in use… So, what was suggested by others: do tagging, keywording, and smart-collections BEFORE editing - then slam it together in the storyline...

You are obviously correct that the link is not to the video I intended, but it's hard to take your feedback seriously when you tell me that the linked scene shows "A/B editing of two body cams." Within sixty seconds of the linked timestamp, the video cuts between four different cameras, easily differentiated by the serial number [that I wish wasn't] visible in the upper-right corner. Also, the scene contains many rapid cuts between angles as time progresses linearly. That is a natural fit for multicam. Doing the same thing outside of multicam would be terribly inefficient. I know that unfortunately-well, because I used to do it.

Getting back to my question, how does your suggestion solve the problem I raised?

So, you have your tagged and keyworded angles. Now what? You create a multicam clip (or clips) from those angles, and then you create a project with the multicam clip(s). You're in the project, with the multicam clip(s) on the timeline. The angle viewer is open, and you're ready to cut and switch among your angles' video, audio, and audiovisual elements. How are the tags and keywords useful at this stage? As far as I know, you can't see them.

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Last edit: by realworldmedia. Reason: English

Possible to mark points of interest in multicam angles for use as cut cues? 25 Nov 2021 03:17 #117645

It works less well for a big "wall to wall" >= 8-camera multicam live performance. Your reality show apparently doesn't require an unbroken chronological timeline, but you have lots of angles. A marker, favorite or keyword range is done based on editor assessment of an *angle*. However as FCP is currently designed, those tags exist only at the container level. IMO when you mark a range on the multicam, FCP should record the monitoring angle and the UI should visually reinforce that, but it does not.

You get it! :P

I am planning on submitting product feedback regarding this, and I'd like to include with it at least some kind of suggestion as to how they might implement a solution. This is what initially came to mind: in the angle viewer, display a line underneath each angle. The line represents the entire timeline of that angle, and any markings applied to the angle appear on that timeline, as does the current playhead location.

If you've ever used iZotope RX, something like the waveform overview that's always present at the top, only more minimalistic.

When placing markers on multicam clips in the event browser, you could try naming the marker for the angle. The timeline would inherit that from selects in the browser. In the timeline you could double-click on the marker to see the angle designation or even search on those using the timeline index. That's just a workaround but maybe it would help.

Those are good ideas! Thank you. I'll give them a shot.

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