CinemaDNG Natively In FCPX?

What do you guys think the chances are of CinemaDNG ever being supported directly within FCPX?

It seems fairly plausible to me considering the RED RAW Plugin support that has been around for a good while in FCPX and that other NLE's like Premiere (and I guess Resolve, now) support it...although I admit I don't know any technical reasons why this would or wouldn't be possible...

What do you think?

I have no clue but yeah, it would be great.

Ronny might know.

That may be up to Blackmagic Design. That support is a plug-in architecture which camera manufacturer's are able to write their own plugins. Just like with RED. BMD seems to be in the thick of the NLE wars, so they may have no interest in it. But yes, it would be nice. We have a couple of their cameras, and this is our only complaint here, lack of FCPX native support.

BenB wrote: That may be up to Blackmagic Design. That support is a plug-in architecture which camera manufacturer's are able to write their own plugins. Just like with RED. BMD seems to be in the thick of the NLE wars, so they may have no interest in it. But yes, it would be nice. We have a couple of their cameras, and this is our only complaint here, lack of FCPX native support.

Yeah, I guess thats how the RED support works...but then again, CinemaDNG is an open source file format, I believe...as in no approval needed from Blackmagic Design, and anyone can do whatever they want with it more or less, right? Hope Apple would just take it upon themselves to add support at some point since its not just a specific cameras file format...

hmm...

It's origins are from an open format, but BMD tweaks it for their own cameras, so it isn't really the same, exact CinemaDNG that others may be using. Lots of open formats are like that. Look at UNIX, open source, standard operating system. But Sun, Apple, IBM, SCO (I used to be an SCO A.C.E.), etc, all took it and tweaked it to be their own proprietary flavors only they can use. So even though they are all UNIX systems, the same apps won't run on each of them. The apps have to be tweaked for each flavor of UNIX.

Remember, to use RED natively, you have to install the RED Quicktime software, which RED develops and distributes themselves.

I personally put the responsibility on BMD to write their own plugin for FCPX. Of course they want is all to use Resolve instead, since to get broadcast out of BMD software you are forced to purchase their hardware.

A product manager explained to me years ago that Apple uses the plugin architecture as that makes updates go faster and more reliably. Since the camera maker is developing their own codec, they can make their own plugin, update it as they update the codec and camera firmware, faster, easier than Apple could. Apple would waste a ton of time checking with every camera maker, for every different flavor of every codec they develop, and write the plugin for it themselves. That's a TON of work for one company to do. So let the folks developing the codec make their own FCPX plugin. It has been this way since legacy FCP. And IMHO is a very logical and efficient way to handle it.

So all of us BMD camera users should bombard BMD with emails requesting FCPX support, I'd say. Apple is not in the camera codec business, and shouldn't be.

Just my two cents...

I entirely agree with Ben. DNG is indeed an open source format (it's nothing more or less than an image sequence), and you can easily import and edit Cinema DNG clips in FCP X, but you won't be able to access the RAW metadata. For this to happen, BM should develop a plugin just like RED did.

If you really want to shoot in RAW DNG, you can import the files in Resolve and create ProRes media for editing in FCP X, then send an FCPX XML to Resolve to do the grading on the RAW clips and finish in Resolve or bring the graded clips back into FCP X for finishing. This roundtrip is pretty seamless.

This said, I have seen wonderful grades done on BM footage in FCP X without using any RAW files at all. If you have a camera operator who knows his job and who does not deliver heavily over or under exposed images, shooting RAW is not a must. The little Cinema camera can record in ProRes HQ, which gives perfect 12-bit imagery that withstands heavy color corrections. With codecs getting better all the time, many productions are not shot in RAW anymore. Focus was entirely shot in ProRes XQ (okay, with an Alexa camera that is a gazillion times better than any BM camera, but still...). Only some shots that required very heavy VFX were recorded in RAW. For two recent cinema commercials we also shot everything in ProRes XQ from Arri. Never had any issues with grading or editing.

To summarize: If you don't need to record in RAW, Cinema DNG works perfectly in FCP X as it is now. If you want excellent picture quality and easy editing, shoot in ProRes HQ. And if you absolutely want to work with RAW footage, use the FCP X/Resolve roundtrip.

- Ronny

To add to Ronny's info, we use a BMD Production 4K and Pocket cameras, we shoot ProRes HQ, and it is plenty quality enough to grade in FCPX. I don't think we've ever taken any of it to Resolve.

And if anyone on any of my productions says "We can fix/grade/fake/etc it in post", I fire them on the spot. I've actually fired 4 people over the past few years for seriously (not in a joking manner) making these types of comments. For real.

Beyond adding a RAW interpreter, which BMD might have to supply, Apple would have to add the ability to recognize image sequences as video clips with audio. Right now, FCPX has no actual support for them. The ludicrous work around of importing the files as individual stills, placing them in a compound clip and editing with that HAS to go! Also, there would have to be a way that the WAV file in the same folder ( the way Cinema DNG clips come from BMD) would be synched automatically with the sequence. The current architecture does not support this.

Just a couple or thoughts/corrections.
Camera manufactures write code that interprets data from the image sensor into a format internal to the camera via firmware, this is generally considered RAW format. In general, manufactures keep the conversion software/firmware code secret. Manufactures then can (or not) provide a plug-in or other software for access to either the RAW data or to an Open Standards format so Image programs (NLEs/Photo) can utilize the image captured.

BM is using a form of DNG for general interaction while reserving RAW format. Encouraging BM to develop a plug-in is a great idea.

UNIX is not "Open Source"per se. UNIX is a trademark, while Unix is the code. It was developed by AT&T in the Bell labs as a machine independent OS that could handle decades of equipment via packets to kernel, that when they crashed would not take down the entire phone system. It is a licensed format and the license allows/requires maintaining code license.

Now comes some confusion, UCBerkeley, Computer Sciences Research Group(SCRG) through a research educational license developed BSD (Which Apple uses) and parts and variants like OpenBSD,FreeBSD, became "Open Sourced" but some of the original code had to be rewritten. BSD itself has a license that is very liberal in usage. There are additional Unix flavors with various licensing requirements.
Bottom line, Unix is still restricted by license.
In recent years UNIX via Open Group, has been developing "Open Standards" that allow various versions/flavors to interact together in standardized ways. This will mean each maintainer of the various flavors of Unix can use standard code instead of writing and maintaining interpretive sub routines.
Unix has gone through many legal challenges lately as to who owns what part of the code rights.

gnu (gnu NOT UNIX) which is the base for Linux (among others) is an OS developed to mimic but not use UNIX code. It is a true "Open Source" code but has it own requirements for "free" distribution and code release.

Apple has "Open Sourced" a lot of code it has developed but it also maintains proprietary OS/program code which is why you can't legally just install Mac OS on any machine you want. The OS has proprietary code that interfaces with BSD.
This is much like BM using "Open Source" DNG image format while maintaining rights to the code inside its cameras.
BM could decide to support its RAW data to other Open Source formats not just DNG. Make your requests!

It should be noted, that it is the manufactures that have to update and maintain the "plug-in" and this requires extra commitment and resources. Everyone complains when plug-ins aren't updated day one.

Hope this helps, Greg
Wait I'm still confused

Another method would be to process the frames in After Effects, Aperture, Photoshop, or Lightroom. Then use QuickTime to turn the new images into MOV files.

digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2012/11/11/bl...mera-post-workflows/

Examples here:

vimeo.com/50183656

- Oliver

I imagine that the OP's question was more to do with making life easier, not adding more cumbersome processes. Being able to access Cinema DNG within FCPX would cut down several steps for certain workflows. If you're going to deal with external file interpreters from FCPX, you might as well use Davinci Resolve which is free and speedy compared to any other option.

The workflow within After Effects is much like Photoshop and is pretty much a huge hassle for dealing with scene to scene corrections, real-time playback, auto-synching footage etc. For example, if you open a sequence in AE, you get the first frame of the sequence as your correction frame, which is often NOT the frame you'd actually like to grade. Using Lightroom is even more painful because it doesn't know what image sequences are either.

If you've got multiple shots to deal with, using photo apps are a huge hassle. I'd skip AE for this part of the process because even though it deals with image sequences, its dog-slow and unwieldy.

My advice: get Resolve and learn it well enough to generate dailies for FCPX.

I agree, but right now FCPX doesn't deal with CinemaDNG raw. If you are creating dailies, then shot-matching in a timeline is a moot point. Resolve doesn't really gain you much there. The photo-app route is simply another alternative and in fact, probably does a better job in digging into the raw file itself. But ultimately the the point at the front end is to create a master file with a neutral color setting that's conducive to final grading in FCPX or something else. So yes, Resolve is a great tool - just not the only tool.

- Oliver

Oliver that's just not true.

Resolve is purpose built for the whole pipe-line, dailies through final color. You can deal with basic shot to shot corrections or just apply LUTS. It can play DNG sequences back in real time. You can apply multiple grades and spit out everything you'd need for an off-line in FCPX. Or if you want to output final gradable Pro Res files, either as flat Log style or with a LUT, you can do that do.

Simple shot matching is a good idea, even for dailies, to get a usable starting point. In Resolve, it's easy and comprehensive. In any other app you've mentioned, it's unmanageable.

I'm not sure what you mean that Photoshop can dig better into a Cinema DNG than Resolve. Resolve has very deep RAW controls. Not to mention that if we're talking about BMD files from their cameras, Resolve has the color science nailed compared to Adobe, who has essentially abandoned the Cinema DNG format.

There's no comparison.

I imagine that the OP's question was more to do with making life easier, not adding more cumbersome processes. Being able to access Cinema DNG within FCPX would cut down several steps for certain workflows. If you're going to deal with external file interpreters from FCPX, you might as well use Davinci Resolve which is free and speedy compared to any other option.

Yeah exactly what I was going for...I shoot, offload, make proxies in Resolve, edit in FCPX, round trip, grade RAW, etc every day pretty much...It works for sure...some stuff doesn't go that smoothly as far as translating and you kinda have to do things in a certain order of operations or you can get in a bit of a mess on occasion...

But yeah, It's more that I'm hoping the option would be added to just get straight to the point sometimes, which could definitely help on some projects. It just nice to see FCPX mature and add more features to make life easier, even if they aren't absolutely essential things.

The workflow within After Effects is much like Photoshop and is pretty much a huge hassle for dealing with scene to scene corrections, real-time playback, auto-synching footage etc. For example, if you open a sequence in AE, you get the first frame of the sequence as your correction frame, which is often NOT the frame you'd actually like to grade. Using Lightroom is even more painful because it doesn't know what image sequences are either.

If you've got multiple shots to deal with, using photo apps are a huge hassle. I'd skip AE for this part of the process because even though it deals with image sequences, its dog-slow and unwieldy.

My advice: get Resolve and learn it well enough to generate dailies for FCPX.

Yeah, while the After Effects/Photoshop/Etc workflow can work, at this point in time as far as a video workflow is concerned, I don't see why anyone wouldn't go to Resolve first since thats what its designed for...especially being that its free vs. the other applications that aren't...unless you just know your way around the other applications better or something, I guess.

To each their own I suppose.


Thanks for everyone chiming in!

Shane, I feel your pain. I go through the same thing when all I want to do is bring a simple shot or two into FCPX and not have to deal with Resolve. I'm not even sure FCPX is built to play back RAW sequences at speed. It's grossly unsuited to dealing with them.

It sounds like you're well dialed on the Resolve/FCPX round-trip, so you know the advantages. My guess is that it will take Apple forever to get this right, but who knows. And at this point, BMD are building a credible edit solution, so their need to support FCPX right away is diminishing...

My feeling is that if its not worth dealing with Resolve, you should probably just go with in camera ProRes and save yourself the trouble. Otherwise, I can't think of a better tool (or cheaper!)

How can we "influence" BM ? Do they have a feedback page like Apple ? If tons of members of this forum send an email, maybe it will trigger the beginning of a beginning of something.

My guess is this is really low priority for BMD because they're launching Resolve 12 and Fusion 8 for Mac in addition to all the camera stuff they're doing. I'm not so sure the ball is even in BMD's court because unlike Red RAW, which is proprietary, Cinema DNG is open source. I'm not sure BMD builds interpreters for any other software company anyway, Apple included. I think the whole reason BMD chose Cinema DNG was to avoid proprietary app-by-app development.

It's up to Apple to get off the pot and support image sequences first and foremost. They already have a RAW interpreter in what they've got for Photos/Aperture, so they need to do a little porting. That would assume that you can even play RAW sequences at anything other than really slowly. My impression of Apple is that they don't implement sub-standard solutions, so if they've not got it working fluidly, they skip it.

Are there any NLE's (apart from Resolve) that support native Cinema DNG editorial? I'm not talking about composite programs like Nuke, but the mainline NLEs. My guess not.

I'm assuming this is anything but trivial for either of them, otherwise they'd have done it.

PaulG wrote: Are there any NLE's (apart from Resolve) that support native Cinema DNG editorial?

Premiere Pro CC 2015 handles it quite nicely in real-time and with access to the raw controls (temp/tint/exposure).

- Oliver

Interesting. I can't get Premiere 2015 CC to recognize anything about a DNG sequence. How are you importing them?

BMD is doing a camera presentation after my FCP X multi-user demo at IBC, I will try to find out what their plans are with this. OTOH I don't think BMD nor Apple will be pressed in any way to handle Cinema DNG RAW natively in FCP X.

First, if you really want to shoot RAW with a BMD cam, the best way to handle the footage for grading is by using the FCP X/Resolve roundtrip. It's easy, it works right now and it's free. So why spend time and effort in developing an extra plugin?

Second, as Ben said, recording in Prores HQ with a BM cam gives you very high quality footage that is easy to grade right inside FCP X. BM also seems to be pushing towards this form of acquisition for real-world productions, as can be derived from the lead text of their presentation: "Blackmagic Design with an insight into Blackmagic Design’s Ultra HD mobile demonstration vehicle that connects Blackmagic Design’s latest creative technology with Apple hardware and software, including the use of ProRes from acquisition to delivery."

For these reasons, I don't think native support for Cinema DNG RAW inside FCP X is very high on anyone's priority list. Nor is it really needed. But you are always free to submit a feature request.

- Ronny