Why does transcoded media need to render (optimized not correct)?

Here are the steps that I am doing to add a clip to a fresh project, but when I add the clip there is a render bar.. why?

1. Import media into new library/event/project. Media is MTS 1920x1080 25i
2. Deinterlace media by clicking on deinterlace box in inspector settings. Media is now 1920x1080 50p
3. Rt click media in browser and optimize to 422
4. Drag media to the new project/timeline


media still needs to render.
Project settings are (1920x1080 50p, told FCP to create project settings with first clip added to TL)

For #4 above, I can see in the inspector that 'original' and 'optimized' are now colored green circles when I click on the media in the browser.
When I drag this media to the timeline, how do I know I am dragging in the optimized media? I suppose its automatically using the optimized, but how to verify it?

........


I just checked the media that was optimized in the library folder with imedia hud (and checked it by importing it into FCP). The media is 422 now, but it is still 25i.
Im sure the problem lies here somewhere (why I have to still render), but why isnt the optimized media 50p??

thanks
Kurt

Optimizing media will not deinterlace it. Deinterlacing 25i media doesn't make it 50p it makes it 25p. That's what your project should be if you want progressive output.

It makes it 50p (by doing the steps I mentioned, clicking deinterlace)

forgot to mention, thats why I deinterlaced it first, then optimized it.
So theoretically i should be optimizing deinterlaced material.

Deinterlacing does not change the frame rate.

Yes it does.

support.apple.com/kb/PH12648

"Select the Deinterlace checkbox.
Note: Selecting the Deinterlace setting causes the frame rate of the selected clips to double. For example, if the original interlaced clips have a frame rate of 29.97 fps, the deinterlaced clips will have a frame rate of 59.94 fps. Keep this in mind when you choose the video and audio settings for your project.
Tip: To confirm the absence of interlacing artifacts, you can press the Left Arrow and Right Arrow keys to step through the clips in the Timeline one frame at a time.
"

Further down in the article it states
The clips now play back and function as progressive clips. Depending on your specific computer configuration, background rendering may be necessary.

This may explain why I need to render but dont explain why an optimized clip only goes 1/2 way there...
It should be deinterlacing the clip and changing the frame rate as well, (especially if you set this stuff before you optimize) not just make it 422.

I have 24gis ram, 3.33 6 core, and NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680
So I am not sure what they horsepower want for a deinterlaced clip to not have to render...

None of this happens. You quite misunderstand what deinterlacing does. Optimizing never alters the frame rate not does deinterlacing. I'm done now.

Wow you're right about the frame rate in deinterlace. Doesn't alter what optimize does. This is all being done in software non-destructively. The frame rate of the actual file is not changed. When the file is transcoded it's optimizing the original media whose frame rate is unchanged. The change happens in the application in the software.

LOL.. 'Im done now'..
Take it up with apple, thats their document not mine.

Also add a interlaced clip to the browser and look at the frame rate.
Click on deinterlace and look at the frame rate.
This is how FCP is interpreting the change (and thats fine)
You will see the frame rate double.

I understand deinterlacing. Basically behind the scenes you are getting a interlaced frame at full res VS two half resolution frames when deinterlaced.

I find it odd that the optimized clip that gets created remains interlaced.

The project settings are set to progressive, then you deinterlace it, then you optimize it..
But optimize only really just transcodes it to 422 (keeping the original framerate and interlacing regardless of what you set for the interlacing).

Not really optimized or transcoded completely, just the codec changes.

Dont seem like it really finishes the job.

But anyway, thats why I need to still render. The clip is still really 25i, even though FCP says its 50p
So either the app needs to read it right or it needs to finish the job and really make the clip 50p.
If it was 50p, bringing it in a 50p timeline, would cause no needed rendering.

Kurt

Because transcoding optimized the original file which is unchanged despite what you do inside the application. The optimized media is then processed in software exactly the way the original media is processed. That's why you have to render because the clip is 25i and that never changes. The original media is unaltered. There is almost nothing you can do in FCP that's destructive to the media. It would be crazy to do that. Cinema Tools could destructively reset the frame rate of media. If you really want to change the media use Compressor or CT if you have it up batch process the media.

I agree with that if the original media was being used, you dont want that to be altered.
But FCP is making a new media file.
The optimized clip is a separate clip. Changing this clip to any framerate will not alter the original.

So the new clip can be as 'destructive' as needed...
In this case, destruct it to the frame rate and interlacing settings that the app says it is. 50p

That would be stupid. That would assume that every time you used the media in whatever project you always want it to be deinterlaced at half resolution. That would be bad. Why would you want to degrade the media in the optimized form? Nobody would want to degrade the media and reprocess it with effects or correction and recompress on export. You always want to process from the original file through to delivery.

Oh and this way of deinterlacing with field interpolation is not a very good way to do it. You're better off editing in a 25p project and have the application interpolate the fields that to half the resolution.

Kurt
Allow me to display my ignorance
I thought MTS was a very yucky wrapper?? Lots of issues; yes/no??
Isn't it better to just make a camera archive and then import ProRes422?
Don't work with MTS so really am ignorant.
Hope you can help, Greg

Hi Greg,

MTS surely wouldnt be my 1st choice, but what the customer sends is what I have to work with.
I get the media files, not all the files from the cams drive.
I think the worst part of these files is pulling a green screen, otherwise, for what these are for (youtube videos I am making for him) there fine..


Tom,
What would be stupid is delivering video for the web interlaced.
The media is not really being 'optimized' at all, its just transcoding the codec.
For web video you do not want interlacing.
Its a very simple issue here, the app tells me the transcoded clip is 50p but it is not.
So putting a '50p' clip in a 50p timeline makes a render bar
Why? Because the transcoded clip is not 50p
You dont see a problem with that?

As for your approach to editing the 25i clip in a 25p project, I think I tried that and got black bars during movements in the video. I am defragging a drive now so I cant double check that now.

Kurt

I never ever said to use interlaced video. Firstly, nobody should be shooting interlaced video anymore. If it's put in a 25p it won't be interlaced. You also don't want 50fos for the web. If you're getting back bars it sounds like the interlacing is being scaled. Why do you see a problem with something having to be rendered? You're changing the specification. It's going to have to render. It's just a question of how many times you want to reprocess it. It's always best to reprocess from the highest quality least altered format you can get, and that's a ProRes transcoded file in the same specs as the original media.

Kurt,

I partially agree with you: The Apple manual is a bit confusing.

The main thing is that "Optimized Media" only affects the codec – nothing else. The process is not destructive to the actual picture content.

Things like de-interlace are effects which might be displayed in real time or not but still needs render since they alter the actual picture content - not the file content.

When you click a clip in the browser, apply de-interlace that's fine. If you expect FCP X to create a new file out of this browser clip you're on the wrong track. Would be the same with any other effect like crop, lens distort, color correction or any other things.

It doesn't matter at which point of time you create "Optimized Media". Frame rate, dimensions will stay the same with no effect applied.

To make a 25i/50i (I hate these different naming conventions) to 50p you have to render it out to a new file and re-import that one into your library.

- Andreas

I agree with Tom. This is the best way to go, unless you want to spend days creating motion compensated deinterlaced ProRes files in Compressor:

Import the MTS clips in FCP X. You will have 25i native files.
Optimize the footage if you want better playback and better effects handling. You will get 25i ProRes files.
Drop the clips into a 25p timeline. This will interpolate the fields, creating 25 progressive frames at half resolution, which is perfect for any web delivery.

Of course you will get render bars, just like whenever you modify a video file on the timeline.

If you don't want to get any render bars: deinterlace your video to proRes 25p in Compressor, then import the Prores files in FCP X and drop them into a 25p timeline. The quality will be somewhat better than when you deinterlace on the FCP X timeline, but as I said at the start: high-quality deinterlacing with motion compensation can take a long time, especially if you have lots of, or long, files.

- Ronny